Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt30.txt

Text File | 1995-10-20 | 1MB | 23,928 lines

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zen And Dannyism
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Lines: 45
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Phoenix Lab., Univesity of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsagent: :: uutimet -- news-agent by [e-mail] ::
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:59:26 GMT

> Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
> From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
>
> In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
> |>                    WHAT DO YOU THINK?
> |>
> |>    "Every Everyday fact
> |>           of Science or Common Sense
> |>     is a Window
> |>           into the Unknown Source
> |>     of All Things."
> |>                                              Cyberpunk Pouggie
> |>                                              January 8th, 1993
> |> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> |> [e-mail]
> |> Keeper ot the Danny Pouget On-going
> |> Biography archival effort.
>
> When I replace the terms that are undefined with variables, I get
> the sentence:
>
>    "Every X is a Y."  (which might be simplified further to 'X == Y', or even
>                        to'X')

I think it states something else too.  The X is a group of information,
and Y is even larger group of information.  The information in X is called
knowledge, while the Y is unknown but existing would-be-knowledge.

So, X belongs to the group of Y,
    but not the vice versa.

> --
>   Robert E. McGrath
>   Urbana Illinois
>   [e-mail]

Let's use bandwight,

--
Tuomas K.Kaikkonen   [e-mail]  ,._/\ " % man woman     "
Taidonkaari 1 E 36   Tel:[phone]  `.  | " woman not found "
SF-90570 OULU        (_/ _  __             /FI| " % wife ?        "
FINLAND               I I-I /_            |___/ " wife: No match. "


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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Jon Clarke)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 09:37:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Z*NET Global News Gateway in Parnell New Zealand.
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:

> Ozzie, if I'm correct, is a term used by Australians only, ie slang.

 Well close. Those of us in New Zealand call you Ozzies and Aussies.
 Ozzie comes from the slang "The land of OZ" (Aus). Aussie comes from
 AUStralia.

 Have a good arvo from Kiwiland


 Jon Clarke                                                     Z*NET Pacific
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  [e-mail]           GEnie: J.Clarke6        Hexagon: HSBC NZM EBD
  Phone: [phone]       IFNA : 3/772:105        GEM    : NZM CABLES
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     "Practise safe computing ! Wear a write protect tab!" jc 1988
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:53:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James Porter) writes:
> Is anyone is Alt.aliens seeing this post?  I dont think my USENET echos are getting outside of FLA.  Anyone seeing this and not seeing a reply to it send me a message!
>
Dear lost in space: I saw it! Didn't look to me like a post though, more
like a doughnut with hair on it and large gawking eye like protrusions.
Hopef this helps.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duncan D. Sterling)
Subject: Re: I am disappointed...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rac1.wam.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 05:10:53 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Diane Atkinson) writes:
>
>I thought I might find intelligent debate here--you know, presentations
>of facts by both sides,  discussions, perhaps even a little more in
>the formation of explanations in the whys and hows of extraterrestrials.
>Instead all I find is petty bickering, opinion and people bashing,  "Gee,
>look at this story--Weren't these saps dumb?" articles, and a lot of
>"There's no way anything but my opinion is correct" stuff.
>
>I had hoped for more....
>
>Diane Atkinson
>[e-mail]

  I agree with you completely.  If there's anything A.A.V. could use, it
would be a slightly more serious atmosphere than the one I've seen lately.

  But how to accomplish a shift into a more constructive approach?  I don't
think that the "noise makers" will quiet down after simply being asked to.
I do think, however, that if the number of serious posts starts climbing,
they could eventualy smother the garbage posts, especially if everyone can
get in the habit of ignoring pointless posts.

  Enough factual material exists on the topics covered by A.A.V. to fuel
serious, intelligent discussion and debate for a long time to come.
Why don't we all try to move toward such an approach?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duncan Sterling          [e-mail]   GT750L, KH500A8, CA175K3
University of Maryland    "Yeeehaaa!" - Slim Pickens in "Dr. Strangelove"
College Park, Md.         "2 strokes are quicker than 4" - anonymous
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!well!sarfatti
From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Weird message - does any one know meaning?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 05:38:21 GMT
Lines: 22


I would greatly appreciate an explanation of following message if any
one knows what it means? Please e-mail me with your response. Thank you.

Subject: Is enclosed a threat?
From [e-mail] Fri Jan  8 20:58:37 1993
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 23:57:39 -0500
From: [e-mail] (0000-uucp(0000))
Subject: Warning From uucp
Apparently-To: [e-mail]

Subject: Warning From uucp

        virgin!mail unhtel!virgin!nhstrat!rlyeh!cthulhu   (Date 01/07)
The job will be deleted in several days if the problem is not corrected.
If you care to kill the job, execute the following command:

        uustat -kvirginN3725

        Sincerely,
        mv!uucp
                            .
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13470 alt.alien.visitors:12429 sci.skeptic:36765
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Leps and UFOs.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 93 01:09:04 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 59

1>+8
Subject: Leprechauns and
UFOs.
  Today I went to see the movie called Leprechaun. I think that the
show is pretty good if you like to be scared and like horror shows.
As far as being very authenic I believe that it missed the mark by a l
long shot.
    It seems that we always like to make fun of our friends the Leprechauns.
When  I first got into this work it was my good pleasure to be taken on a
field trip by a very learned man. We went down the Niles Canyon Road
near Fremont, Calif  in an easternly direction till we nearly got to the
second bridge overpass.  At a place called the Golder Gate Trinity Baptist
Church you will find a steel cyclone fence that surrounds the property. As
you turn to the left up the road that goes to Harward (north), on the fence
and upon the oak trees he said that people often see Leprechauns.
Sometimes only psychic people can see them but at other times everybody
can see them. They often just appear as a light.
  I didn't think about this much until later I took a young man up there with
me who wanted to come in contact with the space people. As we were
going up the road in a northern direction we stopped and he was worked
on by the space people. He felt like someone was polking him with a knife
and he jumped around like a person having an experiece in a certain type
of church. After this all happened he was able to see the Leprechauns and
we went through all sorts of experiences trying to get a picture of them, even
on my shoulder. I never could see them. We used all sorts of film inclulding
black and white, color and infra red to no avail.
  On another trip into the area he is taken over by the space people from the
Pleiades and they talked through him and he tallked to us with the space
people talking though him. The just said something to the effect they were
the people from the Pleiades and they were here to help us. We then went
over to the San Andreas Resurvoir and saw two UFOs cruising around
underwater with their lights on like a couple of submarines. Everybody in
our group of 4 people say that.  We also saw certain areas where a lot of
Leprechauns stayed around groups of trees and rocks. He was also able
to see UFO places when the UFOs stayed. I later brought in another person
who said the same thing of the same areas,.
  So I think it is a good things to know about our friends the Leprechauns
and also fairies.
John Winston.







f 4 people say that.  We also saw certain areas where a lot of
Leprech8w8
B f+
Y#U%
j3JJg6i9Q
A
    :    )+.0
02468:A

:    )+.0
0Roman 10cpill we nearly got to the
second bridge overpass.  At a place called the Golder Gate Trinity Baptist
Church
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: POP! FIZZZ.... PSI WARS!
Date: 9 Jan 1993 09:58:24 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In an earlier post here I referred to retired CIA official "Ray Clines"
as an associate of Theodore Shackley. It has been pointed out to me via
email that I am confusing two different people. Ray CLINE is the former
Deputy Director/Intelligence who co-authored the book on applied mind
technology with Janet Morris. Thomas CLINES is an associate of Theodore
Shackley, who himself was former Deputy Director /Operations for the CIA.
(And that's perhaps the LEAST sinister entry on his resume).

Sorry for the confusion and any implied insult to Mr. Cline.

-Steve
(You get the feeling I seriously disaprove of Mr. Shackley? Can't
imagine why. :)
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 93 02:02:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Subject: Mitchell Caverns and Dorn Underground Cavern.
   If a person is looking for the Underground City near Cadiz and Danby,
Calif. it might be good to know a little more about that general area.
Before hearing about the city I had heard about a person by the name of Mr.
Dorn who had found a cave opening going down into a mountain that has a name
 that sounds like Mount Keoweef. It's over close to Cima, Calif between
Barstow and Needles, Calif.
  Dorn was doing some prospecting when he went into the moutain and found a
large inner area with a large open area that had a high ceiling. There was a
small stream running through the cavern and he panned out some gold, brought
it out and sold it. He then organized a group to develope the area but
something happened and someone blew up the entrance a little ways down in
the cave entrance. A large company was said to have bought the rights to the
cavern and sealed it off. They also put some guards around the area to keep
people out for a few years, but it has never been opened up. You should also
realize that more UFO are seen in this area than any other place I have even
been in.
  A US government ownes a cavern that takes people into it  and is called
Mitchell Caverns and it is in that general area.
  My friend Marge Bell used to live just south of the filling station at
Cadiz. Once she was going to bury her dead pet dog and proceeded to dig a
hole just a few feet south of her house. She dug down a foot or two and then
hit a hole.  She then took a 25 feet garden hose and put a weight on the end
of the hose and let it down into the hole. She couldn't reach the bottom so
she put on another 25 feet piece of hose and still couldn't reach bottom. It
scared her so much that she covered up the hose and didn't tell any one else
about it. She thought the whole area might fall in and take her with it.
  I have a feeling that the hole is part of an underground cavern that would
go for miles and maybe connect to the underground city, Mitchell Caverns and
Dorn's Cavern.
  Marge Bell has now moved away to 29 Palms, Calif. Her husband Mr. Bell died,
her next husband died but she said that her husbands always died with a
smile on their face.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Leigh Melton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Whatever it was...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:03:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Ed Hopper's BBS - Berkeley Lake, GA - 404-446-9462
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Leigh Melton)
Lines: 15

I just picked up this conference.  The first package I got contained a
.sig that was six messages long, or something of that nature.  Is this a
recurring thing?

Just curious.

L.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . If code was meant to be portable, it would have wheels.

----
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       Ed Hopper's BBS - ehbbs.gwinnett.com - Atlanta, Georgia         |
|  USR/HST: 404-446-9462                  V.32bis: 404-446-9465         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: January 3, 1993
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:38:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 27


 > From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
 > Date: 31 Dec 92 16:04:56 GMT
 > Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > Michael,

 > Will PARANET be making the audio transcripts available to those of us
 > whom
 > do not access to the Satellite feed?

Yes.  As a matter of fact, we now have three programs under our belt.  I will post something about the cost of these tapes and how to get them in the very near future.

 > Then again, mabye we could have JW warm up his astral train & transcribe
 > it
 > for us;->

hehehehehehehe...This may be considered to be an unreliable method.  :-)

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ozzie Ufos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:58:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Atwell)
 > Date: 29 Dec 92 07:07:02 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > Are any readers of this group interested in regular postings of
 > up-to-date Australian UFO reports?

 > If so, post a reply. If there's a reasonable response I'll
 > organize some regular postings.

Jim,

I am interested in getting them.  Presently we receive them from UFORA.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UPCOMING on the ParaNet UFO CONTINUUM
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:45:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally by Michael Corbin
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 8 Jan 1993, 18:44

Here is the schedule for the next two weeks on ParaNet's UFO radio show:

Sunday, January 10 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
        Guest:  Jim Speiser

Sunday, January 17 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
        Guest:  David Jacobs

The show is heard over Galaxy 6, Channel 17, 7.5 MHz Audio.

Be sure to tune in with your satellite receiver and call in over our toll-free lines to speak to the guests.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UPCOMING on the ParaNet UFO CONTINUUM
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:46:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 24


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally by Michael Corbin
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 8 Jan 1993, 18:45

Here is the schedule for the next two weeks on ParaNet's UFO radio show:

Sunday, January 10 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
        Guest:  Jim Speiser
                Founder of ParaNet and UFO researcher in Arizona.

Sunday, January 17 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
        Guest:  David Jacobs
                Author of Secret Life concerning the abduction phenomenon.

The show is heard over Galaxy 6, Channel 17, 7.5 MHz Audio.

Be sure to tune in with your satellite receiver and call in over our toll-free lines to speak to the guests.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: i have a question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 93 02:35:06 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: alt
References:  <199227.4962.12342@dosgate>
Lines: 16

Dear People: I have been asked why I think people can go to Venus and
other planets after a conditioning period and how people from Venus
can come here. One of the first reasons that I believe it is that I
have talked to a person from Venus who is living here now. This lady
was about 28 years old at the time, married and had a young child.
She did not like to tell anyone that she was from Venus because she
knew by experience that people of Earth will really give you a hard
time if you say you are from another planet and even kill you. People
from other planets have been caught and killed by people of a certain
type of church and the priest of that church praised the people for
doing it. A person by the name of Buck Nelson made some visits to
other planets and he was subjected to some energy that  over a two
week period changed the resonant frequency of his body so that he
could exist on Venus with no problem.
Thats all the time I have now.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Conclusions RE:John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 93 02:55:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear People: I don't believe Ethan will quite the group because I
don't believe he is a quiter. You will hear from him again. At least
we are hearing what he has to say and I for one appreciate that.
John Winston.
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
Date: 9 Jan 93 10:13:53 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
Organization: Household UNIX, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 22

Greetings Everyone

With regard to the debate on the term Ozzie or Aussie this is largely
hypothetical, they are still our neighbours across the pond (so to speak !!)

I would like to get back to the original nature of this thread.  I am interested
in hearing about some of the reported UFO sightings which have been reported
in Australia.
The type that I am generally interested in are the CE2K and CE3K type and
are generally not intersted in the "Lights in the Sky" type of report.

Things have been rather quiet here in New Zealand recently, how has it been
in other countries ???

Any Responces by Email are welcome!!!

Regards to all

--
Domain : [e-mail]
Voice  : 64-9-6315825
Snail  : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Terry Ford)
Subject: UFOs's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:43:34 GMT
Lines: 16


So, does everyone here believe totally in UFO's?  You hear a lot abot
about lights in teh sky, and  crop cirlcles and things.  I did not
believe ibn in UFOs for a whilem , but crertain things changed my mind.
First, UFO's have been puicicked up on radar.  Radar proves (well
nothing can be proven), but it kshows that hallucinations can
be ruled out.  There have also been some famous cover ups, with
people even some goverome retired government officials admitting that thee gov.
is hiding something.  I'm tired, so the grammear of this msghh
is most likely terrible.

Please Email me, because I doit took me 15 mins to find this msg
area, and I doubt I will evr be able to find it again.

Terry Ford
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: UFOs's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:44:11 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terry Ford) writes:
>
>So, does everyone here believe totally in UFO's?  You hear a lot abot
>about lights in teh sky, and  crop cirlcles and things.  I did not
>believe ibn in UFOs for a whilem , but crertain things changed my mind.
>First, UFO's have been puicicked up on radar.  Radar proves (well
>nothing can be proven), but it kshows that hallucinations can
>be ruled out.  There have also been some famous cover ups, with
>people even some goverome retired government officials admitting that thee gov.
>is hiding something.  I'm tired, so the grammear of this msghh
>is most likely terrible.
>
>Please Email me, because I doit took me 15 mins to find this msg
>area, and I doubt I will evr be able to find it again.
>
>Terry Ford
>[e-mail]


Having a few editor problems? Looks like it. I thought I would send this to
you so you could see how hard your post is to read.

Yes,
I think there is far too much data to rule out UFO's as anything but
ET's in many cases. Read about Fred Bell... he was stationed at Point
"something" or other (a radar installation on the NW coast) and they
frequently saw massive UFO formations entering the atmouspher on a
constant basis. It was VERY hush-hush, and he quit the military because
he couldn't stand the atitude that these things must not be discussed,
even among themselves...

Jeff-
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!warwick!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Mr G S Sutherland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pleiadian problems
Date: 9 Jan 1993 21:16:12 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: paprika.csv.warwick.ac.uk

Peter T. ([e-mail])wrote :

+> A few sources state that the Pleiadians no longer visit us because they
+> have "problems at home" that
+> they must attend to.
+> Does anybody know what these problems are supposed to be?
+> Thankyou
+> Peter T.

Jeff ([e-mail]) wrote :

+ I would be interested to hear about your sources.
+
+ Jeff-

    I'd like to third that, and also add that there seems to be a
number of people who take the Pleidian message (from Channellers) to be
gospel. If there spirituality, philosophy or theology is in wide use at
home, then it may well be causing trouble. (Assuming that it is genuine.)
If so, then surely it is rather foolish to base one's life on it.

        Graeme.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!iunet!hal9k!victor.volkman
From: [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: CONCLUSIONS RE:JOHN W
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 93 13:36:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: HAL 9000 BBS, W-NET HQ, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)
Lines: 13

-> Dear People: I don't believe Ethan will quite the group because I

You mean "quit" the group.

-> don't believe he is a quiter. You will hear from him again. At least

Try "quitter".

----
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| HAL 9000 BBS [phone] or 663 3959 | Four 14.4k v.32bis dial-ins |
| Public Access QWK-to-Usenet gateway      | With PCBoard 14.5aM & uuPCB |
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: CONCLUSIONS RE:JOHN W
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 00:20:49 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)  writes:
>-> Dear People: I don't believe Ethan will quite the group because I
>
>You mean "quit" the group.
>
>-> don't believe he is a quiter. You will hear from him again. At least
>
>Try "quitter".
>

Sorry Vic,

email is supposed to be quick and dirty. It's not meant to be perfect
or spell checked. We all know how to use a dictionary or spell checker,
and depending on how anal you are, and how much you write, you can
be good or not too good at spelling. That is not the point. The point
is that how many people do you know that spell check their posts?

I don't.

Don't be correcting anybodies spelling on the net. It simply looks
unsophisticated (sp?);-)

Jeff-

DON'T BE WASTING BANDWIDTH IN THIS GROUP!



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!news.d.umn.edu!ub.d.umn.edu!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: BIGFOOTF SPACEMAN?
Date: 9 Jan 1993 18:37:50 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)  writes:

:Even worse, you cannot "live" on Jupiter because there is no place to
:"stand".  It is not solid, it is gaseous.  Not to mention gravity and
:radiation are almost 100 times earth normal.

Well, just to add to the discussion, there is a hypothesis (and I stress the
word hypothesis) that the center of Jupiter is a large diamond (larger than
the Earth, possibly).  No, I'm not just quoting from Clark's book 2065.
The theory is derived from the fact that the methane in the atmosphere
gets converted (by lightning and possibly from objects such as
meteorites burning up in the atmosphere) in to carbon and other
chemicals.  The carbon, being heavier, falls to the planet's center,
where the heat and preasure would be enough to turn it into diamond.

I am not very familiar with this hypothesis, and I'm not sure I've
fairly represented it here.

:----
:+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
:| HAL 9000 BBS [phone] or 663 3959 | Four 14.4k v.32bis dial-ins |
:| Public Access QWK-to-Usenet gateway      | With PCBoard 14.5aM & uuPCB |
:+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

UseNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!psinntp!execnet![[e-mail]]
From: "tom betz" <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: why i put physics here.
Message-ID: <1993Jan9.274.8874@execnet>
Date: 9 Jan 93 19:48:59 EST
Reply-To: "tom betz" <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Executive Networks Information
Lines: 16

Quoth John - Winston regarding WHY I PUT PHYSICS HERE. on 01-07-93:

J->Dear Folks: This all reminds me of the old song words that say, Why is
J->everybody always picking on me.


The truth comes out!  See, John-Winston can't use contractions... he's an
Android from the future!!

No wonder he seems so odd...

---
 þ WinQwk 2.0 a#299 þ There is no such thing as a humble opinion.
--
Executive Network Information System  [phone]
International ILink Host
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Robyn McNamara)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!!
Date: 9 Jan 1993 19:27:17 +1100
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au

[e-mail] (James Porter) writes:

>Is anyone is Alt.aliens seeing this post?  I dont think my USENET echos are getting outside of FLA.  Anyone seeing this and not seeing a reply to it send me a message!
>
>james

James, I can hear you!  I'm on a public access computer system in Melbourne,
Australia.

I tried to mail you @mechanic.fidonet.org, but it bounced.

--
Robyn A. McNamara                                           The Cosmic Froggy
        [e-mail]     [e-mail]
"...blankets and bedclothes, the child of the mountain..." - Simon & Garfunkel
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13479 alt.alien.visitors:12448 sci.skeptic:36796
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Bolivian Encounter Part 4.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 01:07:09 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 115

1>+&(-----
.Subject: Bolivian Encounter
Part 4.
  This is a continuation of the information about a person talking
to a space person down in Bolivia.
Korst: This is unbelievable. Is this really all true?
Athar: We speak the truth.
Horst: I simply cannot believe it. This sounds like a utopical horror.
Kahun: Nevertheless our information is correct.
HorstL I will have to believe it whether I want to or not, Your flying
saucer is evidence enough for me that you must be right.
Athar: We call our flight machines a beamship.
Horst: May I know something of its drive?
Kahun: We are not allowed to give information about such matters.
Horst: I regret.
Aathar: It would be a great help to us if you could assist us.
Horst: Readily, what shall I do?
Athar: We want to entrust you with a mission in connection with
our existence.
Horst: Shoud I perhaps write something about you?
Kahun: This would serve our mission.
Horst: I am not crazy. No human being would take this story for true
from me, and I would be considered crazy,
Kahun: As you wish, Then our troubles were in vain. We must leave now.
Horst: Wait, it wasn't meant like that. Perhaps I could try where I would
remain anonymous.

Athar: How shall we understand this?
Horst: Just so, that I do not tell my name.
Kahun: That will not suit the purpose.
Horst: What shall I do then?
Kahun: You would have to go public as a contact person.
Horst: I cannot. I am not crazy.
Athar: Then our conversation is finished.
Horst: I regret this very much but you must understand me.
Kahun: If this is your last decision, then we have finished our
conversation.
Horst: So be if it must, but I simply can't do otherwise. Can you
answer me a question?
Kahun: If it does not concern our flight means and instruments,
then yes.
Horst: Before you spoke of people who call themselves contactees,
but are not... can you tell me something about these.
Athar: Why are you interested in that if you want to remain silent?
HorstL It is only a question. On the other hand you have convinced
me that you really have come from the stars. I would like to learn
more, but I cannot go out publicly, as you suggest. On one hand no
one would believe me, and on the other, I am not suited for this.
Kahun: You may be right. Yet, as well, it is your right to know the
truth...(Here some names were mentioned).
Horst: Dear, are there so many?
Athar: There are still more of them, but they are rather few in
comparison to the true contactees. Don't you perhaps, want to work for our
mission?
Horst: It is enticing, but I really cannot. Maybe at a later time. I must
discuss this with someone else first, thoroughly,who knows the whole
matter and who is best informed. Can you tell me someone?
Kahun: Go to the  most important man of all, but you cannot assume
your task later. You must decide this now. Either you know already
what is your duty and what you are able to do, or we must renounce
our aid. We must be very severe here.
Horst: So I must deny it, for I cannot make a decision now. I regret,
I will deliberate on this all and perhaps try, at least, to publish this
experience with you.
Aathar: This would delight us and will be useful too. But now, you really
must go, because we still have to perform other labors. We regret that
we have guided you here in vain. Go along in  peace and do not fear.

  "So far I could write the conversation according to its words, and in
the end, all not longer appeared so fantstic to me. After more friendly
words we said goodbye, and I walked the hours back to Trinidad, where
I arrived shortly before night. All night I lay and cosidered this, and I
thought of having acted quite stupid, as I could perhaps have experienced
still more from Kahun and Athar by a sham-agreement. My only thought
was that I would be taken for crazy, if I would indeed publish something
about this. Now I really do not know what I should think of it all, and
whether I could have dreamed it. Please talk about it with my father
and pastor and ask them for their opinion, which please let me know
soon. Do also ask the pastor whether or not one should spread such
talk.   If he thinks this should be done, then please do it. I but ask that
neither my address or yours is revealed, because I do not want to be
troubled upon my return...I await an answer by you with your opinion.
In one month I may be in La Paz where you can reach me at the usual
address."
  Best wishes until then, and kind greetings to all.
                Your Globetrotting Friend,
                 s/Horst
The End.
This is me JW speaking now. So now you have the rest of the story as Paul
Havey the radio comontator says.
John Winston.     am not crazy. No human being would take this story for true
from me, and I would be con&w&
B
%jEa*[$^:}
Pr4DweeX$
79_
4R-XVe)
@
Q    `    &
Q    r    4    UWa&
M

`

`
v
B

Q
T
h0|HZ$k1vD
S$Z!,(0|
HZ$k1vDS
0Roman 10cpi Before you spoke of people who call themselves contactees,
but are not... can you tell me something about
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!mizar.cc.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!toad
From: [e-mail] (toad)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the Einstein conspiracy (TM)??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 01:34:13 CST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Lines: 26

[e-mail] (Chris Morken) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) w
> >Can anyone out there provide me with info on the idea I've heard floating
> >around that Einstein actually finished his unified field theory (but, of
> >course, it was covered up by the gov't and is being used in secret UFO
> >experiments or something)??
>
> No, I'm quite confident that Einstein couldn't have finished his Unified
> Theory, because he was wrong about a few major aspects of the theory, like
> for instance he refused to believe in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
> Einsteins's attempt at a theory seemed to work on a large-scale, but fails
> when the normally weak force of gravity becomes very large due to something
> such as a black hole.  Without aceptance of the uncertainty principle he
> could never come up with a Unified Theory.
>
> cmorken

just for the record,
   Einstein did publish a few versions of his unified field theory,
though published in German scientific papers, they were not thought of as
being satisfactory to him, so his studies kept him going on the basis of
a theory that would better satisfy what he was trying to attain. However,
it should be fairly easy to get these older versions - Try sci.physics
for more information - perhaps someone from the European  community might
help you with that.
Xref: icaen sci.physics:35277 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:2731 sci.skeptic:36797 alt.conspiracy:21619 alt.alien.visitors:12450 alt.paranormal:6275
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,new.age
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Weird message - does any one know meaning?
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 05:37:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
>I would greatly appreciate an explanation of following message if any
>one knows what it means? Please e-mail me with your response. Thank you.
>
>Subject: Is enclosed a threat?
>From [e-mail] Fri Jan  8 20:58:37 1993
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 23:57:39 -0500
>From: [e-mail] (0000-uucp(0000))
>Subject: Warning From uucp
>Apparently-To: [e-mail]
>
>Subject: Warning From uucp
>
>        virgin!mail unhtel!virgin!nhstrat!rlyeh!cthulhu   (Date 01/07)
>The job will be deleted in several days if the problem is not corrected.
>If you care to kill the job, execute the following command:
>
>        uustat -kvirginN3725
>
>        Sincerely,
>        mv!uucp
>                            .

Nothing at all wierd here..It's just uucp telling you that it can't
deliver mail that you've sent to someone@somewhere and will keep trying
to get through for a few more days until it kills the task in it's
job queue. Kill task=delete mail.

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:13:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>>
>>Dear Folks: Why is it that when I hear the words moderator, censorship
>>I think of Hitler? I agree the Don would be a good moderator if you
>>think you need a moderator.
>>John Winston.
>This will be the one and only time that I respond to your crap.  You must
>understand that the use of Internet is a priviledge and not a right.
>When you start posting under the guise that it is your right to post,
>you are wrong.  If you would like to go out on the streets and preach
>to the world your 3 line messages, fine, that is your right.  But you
>must consider your use of Internet a priviledge and behave accordingly.
>And if those who want a moderated group want one, they may create one.
>You John Winston are under no obligation to partake in the discussions there
>and can freely post here(although it is not a right).
>Ethan Haslett
>smoke... smoke.. flame off

Whew. Well, John..it should be pretty apparent that you've upset a
number of people here with your short-but-say-nothing-substantive
postings. I should introduce you to Jack Mathias (grin).

Anyways, you should lighten up and allow people to get on with it.

In case you forgot, the *topic* here is about UFO's and Ethan here has
a point you should bear in mind, and that is simply one of _courtesy_ .

On Fido you would be considered excessively annoying and would be twitted
off echoes accordingly. Does it take the entire userbase that reads this
newsgroup in _some_ hope of seeing worthwhile posts here to continue
tweaking your nose over your behaviour?

Let's get back on the track here..I presume that you haunt this area in
search of the elusive pieces of the UFO puzzle? Why not contribute
something constructive to this newsgroup. I know that you're friends
with Don Showen..what about bugging Don for me to post some more of those
Barbara Marciniak articles here? That would be a "good thing" .


                      Don Allen
                  Fido UFO Echo Moderator
                   MUFONET - 1:123/26.1


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Newsletter
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:18:34 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>I am still getting questions about the newsletter I publish, and it seems
>my previuos messages are being buried among the tons of others on this
>conference.
>Ok. Here goes again...The newsletter is called "The Nefilim Forum". It is
>meant to be an interactive newsletter, so that we publish the letters of
>our subscribers, brainstorming problems relating influence of extraterrestrials
>on human civilizations. It is very influenced by Z. Sitchin's books and
>in fact he has subscribed himself in December. We are also having other
>scientists from all areas subscribing. Things are picking up, subscribers
>start to realize at last how things work in terms of interaction with the
>otheres. If interested, leave me a note.
>
>Regards,
>Vladislav

I'm interested..why not post some of the newsletters here?

Don

--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Global Deception Conference
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:34:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: William Cooper, Cover-ups
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
>Is anybody going to the Global Deception Conference being held at
>Wembley Arena on Saturady 9th and Sunday 10th January??
>
>There is a weird mix of things. The speakers include :
>
>
>    Norio Hayakawa    - an expert on 'black projects' and secret
>                        technology

I have a cassette tape of the "Ultimate Need to Know" UFO conference
held in Calif last year that he speaks on. Mainly he introduces
Michael Younger of the MJ-12 splinter group, COM-12 . Younger's
group represents the "Constitutionalists" and are opposed to repressive
movements involving NSA/CIA, *Wackenhut* /FEMA types who wish to
round us all up in the concentration camps..oh the tape is fairly
wild..but very sobering. I give it a 8 out of a 10. :}

>                            workings of the New World Order
>
>The leaflet I have does not mention the word UFO anywhere, but the
>line up with Bill Cooper and the others suggests very strongly that
>it is very much a 'the aliens are here and working with the Government
>who are keeping the truth from you' type event. Anybody have any
>insights?

Repeat after me.."Bill Cooper is full of dog shit..always has been, and
always will be" A credible word has _never_ crossed his lips. He is
the worlds largest prevaricator of tall tales about "secret underground
UFO Bases" . He has NEVER produced a single scintilla of credible hard
evidence to substantiate his claims. Read "Revelations" by Jacques Vallee
for the interview of Cooper. Read "UFO Magazine" (PO Box 1053, Sunland
Calif. , 91041 - $21 for 6 issues - published bi-monthly). Do some
research on Cooper and get the *real* facts.

I hold Bill Cooper lower than Bill Moore..and _that_ says it all. :}

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12454 alt.conspiracy:21620 alt.bbs.lists:2145
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.bbs.lists
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Fido UFO Echo BBS List - 9K
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:53:02 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 164


This is a list that I compiled of all the BBS systems carrying
the backbone UFO Echo on Fido Net. These were checked against
the current Nodelist and active. More are added each month,
so this list will continue to be updated.

This is Version 1.0 - 01/10/93
------------------------------

Don Allen
Fido UFO Moderator
MUFONET - 1:123/26.1


             ** BBS's that carry the Fido UFO Echo **

Telephone #      System Name                           Fido Node
=================================================================

201-335-1652  - Cobra's Triangle BBS                   1:2606/549
201-451-3063  - Wrong Number BBS                       1:107/816
202-863-1493  - Baron Carlos's Castle                  1:109/160
203-932-6236  - ASCII Neighborhood                     1:141/333
204-255-5993  - Futura BBS                             1:348/101
204-269-7373  - Tech Talk Toll BBS                     1:348/502
204-275-7416  - Parrot BBS                             1:348/200
204-338-3423  - The Land                               1:348/700
205-271-3545  - The Gateway                            1:375/13
205-980-1089  - Deep Space 9                           1:3602/45
206-242-8574  - The Corner! BBS                        1:343/104
206-780-2011  - Quicksilver                            1:350/201
209-823-0854  - The Beemer Board                       1:208/400
213-464-4614  - Inner Space                            1:102/747
214-394-1929  - User-to-User                           1:124/6300
214-480-8170  - Night Lights                           1:124/2221
214-625-2448  - The Terminator                         1:124/7012
214-681-2218  - The DataBank                           1:124/7015
214-724-0318  - Tejas Saloon                           1:124/1019
214-783-1506  - Shuttle USS Richardson BBS             1:124/6107
215-443-9434  - Datamax/Satalink Connection            1:273/203
215-743-8779  - Proteus BBS                            1:273/936
216-356-1431  - Nerd's Nook                            1:157/3
219-485-8665  - The Starship                           1:236/32
303-499-2713  - ParaNet Information Service - HQ       1:104/422
303-534-4646  - The Comm Post                          1:104/666
303-534-4646  - The File Bank                          1:104/899
303-933-3785  - MICAP                                  1:104/608
305-436-1884  - InterMail Sales                        1:369/102
309-797-6027  - New Century BBS                        1:232/31
310-370-4113  - Long Island RB                         1:102/130
315-253-2600  - Auburn BBS                             1:260/370
317-244-1146  - The Sherwood Forest                    1:231/680
318-334-9924  - The Midnight Express                   1:3803/8
401-732-5290  - Eagle's Nest Communications            1:323/126
402-488-2587  - Fortean Research Center                1:285/205
403-225-0346  - Jovian Astrology BBS                   1:134/83
403-346-7530  - The Micro Express                      1:134/2001
404-443-8693  - Spaceport Atlanta                      1:133/524
404-564-9623  - Astronomical Society of the Atlantic   1:133/208
404-939-9937  - Visions 386                            1:133/107
405-359-6929  - The Bull BBS                           1:147/6
405-741-5120  - Our Potpourri                          1:147/72
407-253-0782  - Flamingo BBS                           1:374/46
407-322-3592  - Homebody BBS                           1:363/81
407-330-7188  - Lake Mary Communication System         1:3618/95
407-383-9372  - The Bear's Cave                        1:374/73
407-649-4136  - Gourmet Delight                        1:363/29
410-327-9263  - Pooh's Corner                          1:261/1131
412-266-5947  - Ambridge H.S.                          1:129/55
412-488-8960  - Scouter's Haven                        1:129/186
412-824-6566  - Astral Board                           1:129/39
414-352-6176  - Radio Free Milwaukee                   1:154/414
416-459-6259  - UFO Intelligence Network               1:259/208
416-523-6134  - The Turn Table                         1:244/128
416-629-7685  - Canada Remote Systems                  1:229/15
417-866-2284  - Art's Toy                              1:284/55
501-646-5812  - Rainbow QuickBBS                       1:3822/4
502-683-3026  - Space_Link BBS                         1:2310/210
503-391-5838  - Purgatory BBS                          1:105/605
503-526-9668  - Alternative Realities                  1:105/366
503-620-5910  - NWCS Online                            1:105/362
503-629-5473  - The Chess Board - Node 2               1:105/367
503-692-0872  - The Observatory                        1:105/255
505-662-0659  - Construction Net #6                    1:15/20
505-894-2535  - The Swap Meet                          1:15/17
507-454-7386  - CIS-BBS                                1:2360/16
508-991-6058  - Dreamer's BBS                          1:329/863
512-474-0918  - The Diest                              1:382/100
514-687-9586  - Arcane BBS                             1:167/116
514-974-0445  - Chucara BBS                            1:242/214
516-243-2953  - 516-MacEcho BBS                        1:107/244
516-321-8125  - International Lounge                   1:107/236
517-686-0681  - Altern/8                               1:239/625
519-273-7668  - Five Guys BBS                          1:221/275
601-825-9189  - Cameron's BBS                          1:3632/24
601-842-9255  - Bushwacker BBS                         1:361/502
602-661-1881  - Remotron HQ                            1:114/37
602-864-8862  - ORAC/2 BBS                             1:114/12
602-944-0524  - The Family Computing BBS!              1:114/161
603-888-3840  - The Outpost                            1:132/113
604-431-6260  - Sita and the Ring                      1:153/763
604-535-9826  - Tunnel Vision                          1:153/910
604-589-8561  - Basic'ly BBS                           1:153/9
604-736-5311  - Dial-A-File Mail Server                1:153/777
604-939-4857  - Phantom BBS                            1:153/229
604-984-6000  - 1st Data Circuit                       1:153/791
608-849-5842  - Springfield BBS                        1:121/26
609-263-0406  - After Midnight BBS                     1:266/59
609-722-0415  - La Dolce Vita BBS                      1:266/40
613-825-9302  - Tumbler's Tavern BBS                   1:163/315
615-899-6400  - America Speaks!                        1:362/415
617-596-1579  - Helm's Deep                            1:101/250
618-344-9048  - Dark Star VI                           1:2250/21
619-284-2924  - The Open Forum                         1:202/212
619-377-3611  - Sanctuary From The Law                 1:210/41
619-778-0386  - Gray's Anatomy                         1:202/812
702-826-2337  - Reno International BBS                 1:213/790
703-803-6420  - UFOria                                 1:109/369
704-297-5973  - Spirit BBS -                           1:379/703
704-525-6540  - Black Beard's BBS                      1:379/18
708-290-8877  - Lunatic Fringe                         1:115/542
708-453-6630  - Sun, Surf & Serenity                   1:115/113
713-974-6995  - Beehive BBS                            1:106/41
714-840-2437  - Central Office PDX                     1:103/157
714-925-9564  - The Ouija! Board                       1:207/701
717-236-1375  - The Line Source BBS                    1:270/116
718-729-6101  - The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission          1:278/706
801-266-2426  - Planet Vulcan                          1:311/17
804-229-5223  - The Realms of Magick                   1:271/200
804-471-0736  - The Computer Forum                     1:275/17
804-851-1384  - Jammie Party BBS                       1:271/310
804-868-9023  - The Time Zone                          1:271/232
813-574-4707  - CSPI - Two                             1:371/1302
813-862-8850  - Studio PC BBS                          1:3619/1
816-587-9936  - The File Shop BBS                      1:280/316
817-496-0157  - The Vortex of Insanity                 1:130/79
817-666-5137  - The Unicorner BBS                      1:388/33
817-857-3523  - Y.O. BS. S.                            1:388/8
818-508-0881  - The Wicked Scherzo                     1:102/737
901-753-3738  - Operand BBS                            1:123/58
901-785-4943  - MUFONET BBS - HQ                       1:123/26
901-873-2837  - Buccaneer's Harbor                     1:123/2
904-871-6536  - 221 Baker Street                       1:3608/1
908-245-6938  - Heaven's Gate                          1:2605/711
908-396-0790  - The 8-Ball Cafe                        1:107/920
908-494-3417  - Planet ShadowStar TBBS                 1:107/344
912-757-1864  - Wild & Dangerous BBS                   1:3611/9
914-889-8379  - The Link BBS                           1:272/46
914-928-8191  - Laser Light                            1:272/56
915-594-8704  - Dano's Den                             1:381/83
915-833-0405  - Cheyenne Mountain BBS                  1:381/51
916-446-7286  - Gates of Delirium                      1:203/163
919-349-7616  - The KEY Board                          1:151/70

=================================================================

134 systems listed.


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13480 alt.alien.visitors:12455 sci.skeptic:36798
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 01:56:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Please ignore the dribbless of my computer at the end.
It must have the flue.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: California UFO Sightings 1947-1987
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 02:06:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: That sounds like a lot of UFOs to me. The most I ever
saw in one evening was 14 of them.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!news.d.umn.edu!ub.d.umn.edu!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!!
Date: 10 Jan 1993 01:46:03 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robyn McNamara) writes:
>[e-mail] (James Porter) writes:
>
>>Is anyone is Alt.aliens seeing this post?  I dont think my USENET echos are getting outside of FLA.  Anyone seeing this and not seeing a reply to it send me a message!
>>
>>james
>
>James, I can hear you!  I'm on a public access computer system in Melbourne,
>Australia.
>
>I tried to mail you @mechanic.fidonet.org, but it bounced.

Same thing happened to me.  You're beeing heard (uh, read) just fine
here in Minnesota.


    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

UseNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re George Adamski-Fraud?
Date: 10 Jan 1993 11:31:34 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

Re: comments from [e-mail]
About the Adamski documentary, I tend to agree with you that the man appeared fairly genuine,
bit new-age-ish, but I can live with that.
In the film they quickly flashed his book called: "Insides of space ships, UFO experiences of
George Adamski" Lucky I had the vcr going! {did I say that?}.What inteseted me about the book
was that apparently it shows some sort of technical drawrings of alien craft.
Does anyone know about these drawrings?
If you do please let me know.

Thankyou
Peter T.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pleiadian problems
Date: 10 Jan 1993 11:52:15 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>>A few sources state that the Pleiadians no longer visit us because they have "problems at home" that
>>they must attend to.
>>Does anybody know what these problems are supposed to be?
>>Thankyou
>>Peter T.
>
>I would be interested to hear about your sources.
>
>Jeff-
Sorry to disapoint you but here it goes:
This news group {ie a.a.v.}
Another BBS, contents are similar to a.a.v. but with less squabbling.
Various T.V. documentaries
And various UFO related mags

So you see all I am is someone who absorbs all this info, thinks about it, and then asks questions
pertaining to it all.

Bit of an anticlimax eh?
Ohwell thats life.
Peter T.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!peg!golight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:22 EST
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!!
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-548795256:peg:422800037:000:239
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Jan 11 01:22:00 1993
Lines: 8


G'day Porter.....the echo is making it to Australia very
well....not sure about the third response...that bloke must need a
shave & a haircut...every one knows that echos are triangular not
doughnuts!!!

Regards from DownUnder Photon >:-}

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!peg!golight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:24 EST
Subject: Re: I am disappointed...
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-1169233513:peg:422800038:000:147
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Jan 11 01:24:00 1993
Lines: 7


Well, Duncan and Diane....here's your opportunity...lettaripp!

Get the ball rolling & kick in some intelligent bandwith!!!

Regards, >:-}  Photon

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!peg!golight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:28 EST
Subject: Re: Pleiadian problems
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-403292066:peg:422800039:000:177
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Jan 11 01:28:00 1993
Lines: 10



The again maybe they haven't gone anywhere at all.  Possibably
their just on holidays for a while....giving humanity a short
break!

Thoughts for Food....>;-}

Regards, Photon

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!smurf.sub.org!easix!tron.gun.de!locatech
From: [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Past.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: TRON Public Mailbox, Neuss, Germany
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:04:00 +0100
Lines: 30

\JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 5.01.93 um 22:32:

\P> Subject: Have You Lived On An Other Planet Before?
\P> [...]
\P>    "I agree with the estimate of one in five people having lived a past life
\P> in an alien world beyond Earth," he said.
\P>   This is me JW talking now. Lo and behold could this possibuly be true. Oh
\P> me, oh my, what is this world coming to?

So the theory of reincarnation seem to be true. But as I see there seem to
be several stages of reincarnation, 'cause many people reported on the same
planet. There are that many planetes in universe that could keep life on it,
that it would be nearly impossible that more than 2 or 3 people have lived
on the same planet before. It all seem to be in a order such as: You live
on planet x and after death you MUST live on planet y and then on the next
and so on. Do you know any more facts about that?

\P> Source of Information: Weekly World News, January 19, 1993 page 21.
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                              How is that possible?
                                              Today is Jan 7,93
                                              Or was that 1992?

so long...
                Joerg

--
* Origin : PGP 2.0 public key available upon request.

// THE_DOT V2.05b DEMO //
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!iunet!hal9k!victor.volkman
From: [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: CONCLUSIONS RE:JOHN W
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jan 93 23:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: HAL 9000 BBS, W-NET HQ, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Victor Volkman)
Lines: 9

-> DON'T BE WASTING BANDWIDTH IN THIS GROUP!

A meaningless statement if I ever read one.

----
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| HAL 9000 BBS [phone] or 663 3959 | Four 14.4k v.32bis dial-ins |
| Public Access QWK-to-Usenet gateway      | With PCBoard 14.5aM & uuPCB |
+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!network.ucsd.edu!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!gateway
From: [e-mail] (Adrian Jenkin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ozzie UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 00:19:00
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 30

In a message dated 29 Dec 92  02:07:02, Jim Atwell wrote:

 JA> $MSGID: 3:800/851.0 2b3f2626
 JA> Are any readers of this group interested in regular postings of
 JA> up-to-date Australian UFO reports?

 JA> If so, post a reply. If there's a reasonable response I'll
 JA> organize some regular postings.

YES, YES, YES!!!

I have only just come across this area (the sysop only picked it up recently).

Give us some Australian sightings, we do not all live in the US and Europe.

What is your group, I have never heard of you.

If you like to give me some info it might be easiest to call up Deep Woods (if
you know it) or send it through SA-NET as it might be quicker - I don't really
know.

Good to see a local contingent though,

later mate,

Adrian


 * Origin: The Deep Woods BBS [phone] (3:800/873)

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: Re George Adamski-Fraud?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 18:53:08 GMT
Lines: 18

There is a book from the same time called: Space, Gravity and The
Flying Saucers.  Published in 1955.  The author is Leonard Cramp.
In this book he examines George Adamski's claims and, in particular,
makes a rigorous scientific examination of the Adamski photographs
of flying saucers.  It was in this book that I first read about
the idea of the ships generating their own gravity from the
center of the craft so that the occupants don't suffer the affects
of rapid course changes.
--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


Xref: icaen alt.religion.kibology:5650 alt.alien.visitors:12467
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!doc.ic.ac.uk!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Mike C Holderness)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Collective, dispassionate aliens
Date: 10 Jan 1993 19:41:57 -0000
Organization: c/o Dept  Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: swan.doc.ic.ac.uk
Summary: not a lot

[e-mail] (Rob Dobson) writes:
>How come we see so few alien races that are more wasteful, more selfish,
>and less able to accomplish anything than modern beaurocratic america?

There is, believe it or not, an extensive literature on this.

There existed as late as the mid-80s an obscure Trotskyist sect known as
the Posadists, after their guru, one J D Posad, a resident of Italy.
A key feature of their political platform went:

* There are billions and billions of worlds in the Cosmos
* Some of these must statistically have developed intelligent life
* Some of _these_ must statistically have achieved advanced socialism
* Advanced socialism, not entailing the waste of resources represented
   by the extraction of surplus value from the capitalist system, must
   be technologically more advanced than capitalism
* Therefore [steps omitted] the vanguard of the revolution is up there in
   the sky, making "beep, beep" noises.

I am not making this up. I'm not that inventive -- I'm a reporter by trade!
I have _met_ these people (though quite what the significance of saying
this, in this news-group, is, escapes me).

Mike Holderness
  [e-mail]

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!moxie!anna
From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
Subject: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Organization: Home Improvement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:45:27 GMT
Lines: 12

Yesterday's "Unsolved Mysterys" showed a group of English scientists
in the Stonehenge area who set up cameras in an attempt to catch
crop circle formations.

The camera caught some hoaxsters, but they alleged to have also filmed
some apparently genuine formations. All that was said was that they
were turning the film over to the scientific community for evaluaton, and
then later to the public.

I'm unsure if this was an old rerun or not. Anyone have any further
information on this claim?

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!ericom!hal.ericsson.se!etxsral
From: [e-mail] (Lars Nilsson)
Subject: SA UFO incident ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: hal14.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:43:31 GMT
Lines: 20

Hi

I've heard that South Africa shoot down a UFO some years ago.

Two SA hunter airplanes was chasing a saucer-type UFO and one of them
fired with a prototype laser?? on the UFO and it crashed on the ground.

The UFO and the crew was later transported to the US.

The incident was reported by a SA military intelligence officer.


Have someone else heard about this story ?

/lars
--
Lars Nilsson                                |
Senior Specialist - Data Communication      |
Ericsson Telecom AB , Stockholm - Sweden    |
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Cryptozoology Information Network (Bigfoot, etc.)
Date: 10 Jan 1993 22:04:08 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 311
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


(NOTE TO OUR COMPUTER-USING MEMBERS: Please delete the first group
charter which had been provided to you. The request that you try to
type in and send us information still stands, of course. Look for
the first issue of our newsletter at any time in the very near future.
I'm typing it into the computer as we speak. There will also be a
newsletter which deals only with cryptozoology in general. Any members
who receive more than one copy should notify me, because this would be
due to a dual listing of your UseNet ID.)



     Dear fellow researcher,
                 investigator,
                 or student of cryptozoology,

     By way of the very fact that you are reading this letter, you
have made it known in some fashion, public or private, that you have
an avid interest in the subject of cryptozoology. More specifically,
you probably have a deep interest in the potentially unknown animal
called "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". It is for this very reason that I
write you this letter- in a bold attempt to bring new life and restore
noble goals to this field of research. Please read the charter found
in this letter, which details more precisely the reason why this needs
to be done, providing the framework for a new group that can transcend
the current state of dissension, intimidation, and stagnation that
currently permeates the Bigfoot field. In short, it is time we take
the profit, power, and politics out of the research arena. Only then,
in an atmosphere of good intent and no hidden motives, can we have
true hope in solving this mystery. PLEASE note that we are basing our
statements on various related aspects that are more in the cerebral,
and are NOT making statements in relation to any specific group or
individuals. There are MANY fine groups and individuals in this field,
and all involved have brought good to this field in one way or another.

   If your interest in cryptozoology was spawned by a personal sighting,
please request a sighting form from us and we will mail one to you.
If you are part of a group or organization that would be interested in
forming a working relationship with our group, please send us a
letter detailing your group and it's activities. If you are an
investigator who would like to be in our data bases so you can be
notified of any potential future sightings in your research area,
please send us a history of your activity in this field thus far.

   We currently are looking for donations in the way of material related
to the field of cryptozoology. If you have sighting reports, books,
videos, or any other similar information that may be of value to the
group library, or would like to submit your own material for publication
or review in our newsletter, please mail it to us. Finally, we are
in dire need of addresses of other researchers, investigators, or
people with a general interest in cryptozoology.

   Thank you for your time, we look forward to future contact with
you, and feel free to call or write us for whatever reason.

                                            Thomas E. Hill
                                            The Cryptozoology
                                            Information Network
                                            16124 Richard Dr.
                                            Brook Park, OH 44142
                                            216-362-6529


                   THE CRYPTOZOOLOGY INFORMATION NETWORK
                   -------------------------------------
                         DIRECTOR: THOMAS E. HILL
                   (C)OPYRIGHT 1992 THOMAS E. HILL, CIN

     PURPOSE: Some of you may be wondering why there is a need to form
yet another organized group of people in order to carry out research in
the area of Bigfoot, or even the broader field of cryptozoology. There
are many reasons for this, and I will try to make some of them as clear
as possible at this point in time. First, many groups related to this
subject have strict, non-spoken "laws" and "guidelines", largely driven
by less than respectable desires, that are not conducive to our main
cause- that being to aid in the final solution of this mystery, as well
as other mysteries that may await our investigation. More specifically,
these groups in general tend to hoard information, warn witnesses not
to talk to other investigators, and basically try to sit on and control
as much data on this subject as possible. This can be done in the name
of striving for media attention, sole rights to material for books they
can make a buck in writing, and even just for the share pleasure that
their perceived power as "king bigfoot hunter" gives them. These actions
are typical of investigators who have let this mystery consume and
control their lives, rather than having a firm handle on their original
good intentions in this area of research. Nobody should be blamed for
this. It is one of the many potential pitfalls that this subject harbors,
and it can be fairly easy for anybody with pure initial goals to lose
their perspective when submersed in this subculture.

   That being said, we have decided to form a new group with the
intention to not lose sight of the noble goal that others seem to have
lost. We will provide free and totally open information concerning this
subject as we procure it by our own efforts, while charging NO FEE for
this information, membership, or any other function this group routinely
offers. In other words, our membership is FREE, our newsletter is FREE,
and all other routine aspects of our group will contain no hidden
motives to make some form of profit. There may be a small charge to
cover the cost of shipping and producing such material, but it will not
be inflated so as to incure a large profit to make it worth doing for
personal gain.

   The sole and main purpose of this group is to make an honest effort
in solving this mystery. In order to do this, we must be as open and
free with the results of our investigations as possible. Indeed, it is
our belief that the desire to control information and isolate others is
the main reason why this animal has not yet been found, and the mystery
solved. Therefore, you can take comfort in the fact that we will present
a complete and open service in proving the public, other researchers
and investigators with information as we obtain it on our own. The only
exception to this rule being witnesses who request total anonymity,
information provided by other investigators who request that we not
share it with others, or material that we are currently performing a
controlled investigation on. This latter form of material will be
provided to others as soon as our research in it's case is complete, and
this kind of material is the exception rather than the rule in our
efforts.

   To say that we wish to solve this mystery does not mean that we
believe this animal exists. After all, if we knew that this animal
existed then there would be no mystery to solve. Rather, in order to
use a pure scientific approach, we make no premature judgements on the
reality or myth of this animal. You can only grow and learn with an open
mind, and this is the very root of scientific investigation. To scoff at
the idea that such a creature exists without giving it a throrough
investigation is being vein, not scientifically sound. But by the same
token, crying out that this animal does exist without providing hard
evidence is also not the solution. Rather, we must make an honest effort
to solve this mystery and then hope that our efforts pay off. In the
process, we will not: unduly seek media attention, try to incur profits
from our routine activities, make an attempt to control information and
isolate "competition", or operate our group in any ego-serving fashion.
Again, the noble cause MUST be held close to our hearts in order to offer
true hope in solving this fascinating mystery.

   STRUCTURE AND METHOD OF FUNCTION: The structure of our group has many
aspects to it, and I will try to outline those in an orderly fashion. Our
group was spawned by a computer, of all things. Thomas Hill, the director
of CIN, has vast interest and experience to match in computers, and
thus this is the conerstone to our group. Please note that, although we
use computers to organize and operate our group in the most orderly and
effective manner, by NO MEANS do members have to own, use, or know
anything about computers. Computers are mainly used to support our
infastructure, and play almost no role in the normal group activities,
meetings, field work, etc. We currently use a computer system to do
everything from solicitation of sightings by way of a worldwide computer
network, to maintaining a data base of sightings, investigators,
researchers, and various other things related to this field. These
computer-related aspects are as follows:

   Several worldwide computer networks and computers inkey sighting
areas are used to slicit witnesses to come forward with sightings.
While this method is limited to people who own or use computer systems,
this effort does reach millions of people all over the world and is,
believe it or not, more effective by numbers than using a newspaper
article. While it may be hard for a non-computer user to believe, there
are millions upon millions of people who use these systems everyday.
Requests for sightings are posted in a wide variety of special interest
areas. Everything from: hunting, camping, fishing, hiking, backpacking,
guns, park systems, outdoors, and bird watching, to even more less
related interests, like: paintball, boomeranging, and off-road driving.

   These efforts, though still in their early stages, have already
yielded several sighting reports, and this method should produce a
wealth of new reports in the future. These reports can range from areas
as close as Columbus, to places as far away as China.

   Another function of our computer system is to maintain a data base of
investigators in every nation, state, and even county. We can then
instantly provide these new sighting reports to the right investigators,
as well as refer curious witnesses to local investigators who can help
them. As you can see, this holds much potential in furthering the cause
by way of freeing up information and providing quick action, if needed.
In addition, our computer data bases are open to those researchers and
investigators who need specific information. This could be anything as
broad as a complete verbatim of sightings in a particular state, to
something as specific as a list of animal colors described by witnesses
in a precise county. As you might have realized by now, this computer
network could be the very tool needed to bring this animal into the 21st
century.

   We also use the computer networks to further our membership. Currently,
we have close to 300 members nationwide, and these members provide us
with an important eye in the watch for news and other related data on
this subject. Any information our members spot is relayed to us through
the network, and this information is then recorded and processed in
proper fashion. Additionally, the networks are used to send out our
newsletter in computer form, providing fast, free, instant information
to our computer-using members, as well as the computer-using public at
large. Think of the possibilities of being able to provide constant, free,
informative news to millions of people on this subject. No longer do
investigators have to seek the media's help in order to spread word of
their work.

   The final major computer-related aspect to our group is the formation
of a 24-hour computer bulletin board system (BBS). This BBS will be used
as a portal for other computer-using members to gain direct access to our
data bases, write and read electronic mail to other members, and report
and read about new sightings. This will also provide a permanent library
of articles related to cryptozoology which have been submitted to our
group in paper or computer form.

   Computers are also used to produce our mailed newsletter for members,
write letters, produce videos, and further research in the study of
possible trends in data concerning this animal. Non-computer users should
not feel in the minority here. In fact, the majority of investigators and
other people involved in this field do not use computers. We simple use
computers to further make our efforts more effective and responsive, but
ALL activities and data flowing out of our group will be provided in the
conventional paper format as well.

   Our group will currently provide a free membership, free newsletter,
and free invitations to help in our field investigations. In the future,
we may have a book out containing a compilation of sightings, articles
on various related topics from key investigators, as well as guidelines
on how to go about your own investigations. We also will be providing a
free 1-800 number in the near future to solicit reports, a 24-hour hot
line connected to it, as well as advertisements in key area newspapers
to draw in more sightings. We also plan to acquire land in prime sighting
locations, currently here in Ohio and PA, and will also try to encourage
members who live in prime sighting areas to privide temporary use of
their property for base camps.

   We are more than willing to work in conjunction with other research
groups who request it, and will provide them with as much help in their
investigations as time and money permits. We can only hope that other
groups do not perceive use as some form of "threat" or "competition", and
offer them a friendly gesture of scientific cooperation for future
purposes. We will also avoid the political posturing that some groups and
individuals currently take part in in this field, and only hope that
they will return us the same favor in kind. These political games do
nothing to further the cause, and are more or less the result of selfish
motives. PLEASE keep this in mind if our group fails or hesitates to
respond to any verbal garbage produced by such people. Once again, please
note that we are talking in the general, and are NOT making specific
statements regarding any specific groups or individuals. There are many
find researchers and investigators in this field who are only making an
honest effort to find some answers.

   If you would like to be a member of our network, please fill out
the following form and mail it to our address (or electronic mailbox).
Thank you for your expressed interest in our group, and I hope we can
all share in the mystery, the adventure, and perhaps the final
discovery...

                                          Thomas E. Hill
                                          The Cryptozoology
                                          Information Network
                                          16124 Richard Dr.
                                          Brook Park, OH 44142
                                          216-362-6529

                 THE CRYPTOZOOLOGY INFORMATION NETWORK
                 -------------------------------------

                       APPLICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP

------------PLEASE PRINT OUT YOUR ANSWERS ON THE LINES BELOW----------

USENET ID #:
NAME:
PHONE #:
ADDRESS:
AGE:
SEX:
DEGREES AND/OR
SPECIAL EDUCATION:
INTERESTS:

DO YOU WISH TO BE: _JUST A MEMBER _A GROUP SPEAKER _A GROUP INVESTIGATOR


HOW DID YOU HEAR ABOUT ?:


PLEASE LIST ANY SIMILAR GROUPS YOU ARE A MEMBER OF:


HOW DID YOU FIRST BECOME INTERESTED IN CRYPTOZOOLOGY, AND WHAT KIND OF
ACTIVITY HAVE YOU HAD IN THIS FIELD THUS FAR?:


HAVE YOU EVER HAD A STRANGE ANIMAL SIGHTING, OR ANY OTHER STRANGE
PHENOMENA EXPERIENCE?


PLEASE LIST ANY SERVICES YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO PROVIDE, EQUIPEMTN YOU
MAY ALLOW US TO USE, OR PROPERTY YOU MAY ALLOW US TO DO FIELD RESEARCH ON:


   By signing this agreement, I fully understand that the group and/or
it's members can not be held responsible for any wrong or hurtful
information they might accidentally provide, or for any other physical,
financial, or psychological damage which may result from this information.
I fully understand that the group and/or it's members can not be held
responsible for any accidental injury, financial damage, or psycholigical
problems which may result from meetings or field investigations. I also
fully understand that the group and/or it's members can not be held
responsible for my actions, both in and out of any activity related to
the group. Finally, I fully understand that my membership and/or any
service that this group provides may be terminated for any reason that
the group may consider to be abusive, unconducive to our purpose, or not
falling within the norm of civil behavior.

SIGNED:                                    DATE:

--
George Bush? He doesn't have a clue anymore. Bill Clinton? A slick smile and
a pandering style. Neither one is being realistic about what it is going to
take. The answer..........? ROSS FOR BOSS! VOTE FOR ROSS PEROT FOR PRESIDENT!
The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list? Amiga!
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: BIGFOOTF SPACEMAN?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 14:54:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I just have one question. How big is that diamond in the
sky?
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13481 alt.alien.visitors:12472
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 15:01:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 59

Subject: Ancient Nuclear Test.
   In my travels looking for the Underground City near Danby, Calif.
I was once on the north side of the Clipper Montains and found a lot
of stones that looked like melted glass. It looked to me like there
had been a war thousands of years ago and the combatants used
some weapons that melted the stone and ground to turn it into glass.
     I then started studing the subject and ran across the following
information; ....Although the modern world did not experience atomic
reactions until the 1940s, there is a startling amount of evidence that
neuclear effects occurred in prehistoric times- i.e., sand metled into
glass in certain desert areas, hill forts with vitrified portions of stone
walls, the remains of ancient cities destroyed by what appears to have
been intense heat.
  Those scientists who have encountered these awe-inspiring  aspects
of prehistory stress the point that they are not referring to catastrophes
that were cause by volcanoes, by lightning, by conflagrations se by
humans, or by crashing comets.
    There are ancient ruins in Arabia that date back to the time when
the southern part of the peninsula was fertile and well-watered. In
western Arabia, there are 28 fields of scorched and shattered stones
that cover as many as 7,000 square miles each. The stones are
sharp-edged, densely grouped, and burned black. They are not volcanic
in origin, but appear to date from the period when Arabia was a lush
and fruitful land that suddenly became scorched into an instant desert.
  Albion W. Hart, one of the first engineers to graduate from Massachusetts
Institute of Technology, was assigned an engineering project in the interior
of Africa. While he and his men were traveling to an almost inaccessible
region, they had first to cross a great expanse of desert.
 "At the time he was puzzled and quite unable to explain a large expanse
of greenish glass which covered the sands as far as he could see, writes
Margarethe  Casson in Rocks and Minerals (No. 396, 1972).
 "Later on, during his life.. he passed by the White Sands area after the
first atomic explosion there, and he recognized the same type of silica
fusion which he had seen fifty years earlier in the African desert."
  In 1947, the Euphrates valley of southern Iraq, where certain religious
traditions maintain that human life began, exploratory digging unearthed
a layer of fused, green glass before the culture level of ancient Sumer.
Once  again, this fused glass bore a resemblance to the desert floor
at White Sands, New Mexico, after the nuclear blasts melted the
sand and rock.
  The Red Chinese have conducted atomic tests near Lob Nor Lake
in the Gobi Desert, which have left large patches of the area covered
with vitreous sand. But the Gobi has a number of other areas of glassy
sand which have been know for thousands of years.
  In the United States, the Mojave Desert has large, circular or polygonal
areas that are coated with a hard substance very much like opaque
glass.
  There are ancient hill forts and towers in Scotland, Ireland, and England
in which the stoneworks have become calcined because of great heat
that has been applied. There is no way that lighning could have cause
such effects.
  Hill forts of the west Atlantic coast fringe, from the Lofoten Islands
off nothern Norway to the Canary Islands off northwest Africa were
destroyed by such intense heat that certain of the piled boulders of
their circular walls have been turned to glass.
End Part 1.
Source of Material: UFO Universe Magazine. Fall 1992. Page 48, written
by Brad Steiger and Sherry Hansen Steiger.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Present Lives.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 15:19:29 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Folks: This thing about reincarnation really gets complicated.
I know a lady by the name of Sister Thedra who is aware of another
person who she also is who is a middle aged housewife and another
lady who she also is who comes from Venus and attends UFO study
meetings. In that body she is young and very pretty. To sum it up she
is aware of three bodies that she is in.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!network.ucsd.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SA UFO incident ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 93 23:20:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 112

Hi,

    [e-mail] (Lars Nilsson) writes:
    I've heard that South Africa shoot down a UFO some years ago.
    Two SA hunter airplanes was chasing a saucer-type UFO and one
    of them fired with a prototype laser?? on the UFO and it
    crashed on the ground. The UFO and the crew was later
    transported to the US.  The incident was reported by a SA
    military intelligence officer.  Have someone else heard about
    this story ?

... yep, it made the rounds here in November, here's part of a message
I posted about it then:

... here's some detail, from "UFOs, MJ-12, and the Government", by
Grant Cameron and T. Scott Crain, and "UFO Crash/Retrievals VI: The
Inner Sanctum", by Leonard Stringfield (both available from MUFON.) Is
this the case you're talking about?

   On May 7, 1989, so the story goes (first published in "Quest
International" V9 #2, 1989, by Tony Dodd), a UFO flew over SA
airspace, and was brought down in the Kalahari Desert by two Mirage
interceptors, one armed with some sort of experimental "Thor 2 laser
canon" weapon.  Recovery followed (though only after a special paint
was brought in to cover the object -- its EM effects were stalling
recovery vehicles, including a helicopter, which crashed.) The object
was later opened, and two live (non-human) occupants discovered.  The
object and occupants were flown in USAF C-5's on June 23, 1989 to
Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio (i.e. the object and occupants were
transferred from SA to US control.)

  Accompanying the story (when told to some English UFOologists) was a
five page SAAF document that tells this story, along with additional
detail (20 yards wide, 9.5 yards high disk; 4-4.5 foot tall
greyish-blue occupants, etc.)

    The source for all this was one James Van Greunen, who claimed to
be a captain in SAAF Counterintelligence, and who claimed to be on the
run (in South Africa) from his own government for releasing this
information, and to have over 300 more pages of secret documents in a
bank-safe in Zurich, and needed money to escape with his family to the
US, (enough money to get him out of SA was donated by various people.)

   He did, after a number of adventures (once getting as far as Canada
before being deported back to England), provide another 3 pages of
stuff, which proved to be faked (xeroxing his passport and birth
certificate for seals, and pasting up the rest).  Further documents
provided proved to be retyped from various sources (Bill Cooper's
"Operation Majority", Bennewitz and Lear stuff, some home-grown stuff
published by Van Greuen's local UFO group, and a photograph from
a US UFO magazine ("California UFO").

   When confronted with all this, Van Greunen claimed that he got the
original (the 5-page document) information from a Captain Greer (or
Greef), who really is a Captain in the SAAF.  While the original
5-page document has *not* been shown to be inauthentic; it appears
that Van Greunen concocted the rest to try and get more money, and
lend weight to his case.

   Stringfield reports that Van Greunen was not the original informant
(i.e. the source of the 5-page document), JVG appears to have tried to
use the information he had (from whatever source), along with more
stuff he came up with himself, to obtain money.  But the story doesn't
end there.

   Henry Victorian, Stringfield reports, contacted Captain Greef in
South Africa, who rather than denying the report, instead pressed
Victorian for *his* source of the report.  He (Victorian) was later
had contact with SA military people, who confirmed to Victorian that
the crash and recovery had taken place (though that some details were
incorrect -- the EM-field paint part, for instance.)  Victorian also
made requests for information from NASA, US Space Command (part of
DoD), and the Naval Space Surveillance Center (part of USN) for known
objects that had reentered the atmosphere and landed in South Africa.

  NASA said: The only one they had close to that date was Satellite
19942, on May 8, 1989 -- "reentered 26 April 1990 at 0115 Zulu" [this
appears to be a misprint, and they mean 1989, and launched that date,
rather than reentered -- see below], impacting 18 deg. South, 41 deg.
East, "off SE tip of South Africa".

   USSC said: the only one close to that date (that USSC believed to
have actually have impacted on earth, 6 other reentering objects were
said to have had a less than 5% chance of reaching the earth) was
Satellite number 19942, International Designator 19890-032B (USSR),
common-named "FOTON 2 (rocket body)", launched 26 April, 1989,
impacted May 8, 1989, 0119 Zulu, 18 deg. South, 41.1 deg. East,
Inclination 62.8 deg.

     NSSC was asked about FOTON 2, and said it was Int. Des.
1989-032-B, number 19942, launched April 26, 1989, impacted on May 8,
1989 at 1101 Zulu, and impacted at 46.6 deg. North, 15.4 deg. East.
[Note very different location and time from above.]

The recommendation of Cameron and Crain is to ignore Van Greunen's
"extra" documentation entirely, but that the 5-pager is worth study.
Timothy Good is of the opinion that the whole thing (including the
5-pager) is a fabrication, and that some of the other actors in the
case (notably Henry Victorian (aka "Henry Azadehdel")) are not to be
taken at face value either.  The authors also contacted Bill Moore,
who agreed that the whole thing is pretty shaky (notably that
SDI-laser-on-a-Mirage sounds pretty odd.)


... so, the case is a mess.  On the one hand, we have a 'public'
source that is clearly discredited.  On the other, we have a murky set
of other things that cannot be completely dismissed, and a document
that may or may not be real.  (Both Stringfield's and Cameron and
Crain's books reproduce the document -- Cameron and Crain's exactly as
received, in Stringfield's its retyped.)

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!utopia!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Enuf is enuf. Time for a moderated group...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 08:33:11 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 25

> >Agreed.  I am interested in science. Not bullshit.
>
>   Then why are you reading "alt.alien.visitors"?
>
>   Try "sci.space" or "sci.astronomy".
>
>   You want Alien Visitors, yer gonna GET bullshit!
>
I think you got it all wrong, look I totally agree that we are confronted
with a number of people who seem to be profesional manure producers, this
however does not mean that the whole subject area deserves to be seen in
that light. I know that it is far easier to stick your head in the sand
and avoid the confrontation with phenomena which we cannot explain.

Post Electricum Scriptum, why are you reading it?

Greetings -Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (Author)                      Stycx BBS [phone]
The responsibility for chance...lies within us. We must begin with ourselves,
teaching ourselves not to close our minds prematurely to the novel,
the suprising, the seemingly radical.                        -Alvin Toeffler


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From: [e-mail] (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Present Lives.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: This thing about reincarnation really gets complicated.
>I know a lady by the name of Sister Thedra who is aware of another
>person who she also is who is a middle aged housewife and another
>lady who she also is who comes from Venus and attends UFO study
>meetings. In that body she is young and very pretty. To sum it up she
>is aware of three bodies that she is in.

    Comes from Venus?

    Does she complain that it is too cold here? That the air is
too thin? That our atmosphere's composition is all wrong?

    This is really entertaining.
--
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: NASA antigravity patent
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:07:00 GMT
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In a message to All <09 Jan 93 12:59> Saul Dixon wrote:

 SD> From: [e-mail] (Saul Dixon)
 SD> Date: 7 Jan 93 09:51:33 GMT
 SD> Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
 SD> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 SD> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 SD> make that a third copy.

Any chance of posting the patent number here?

Best,
  Clark



--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Dimensional Thought-Lab
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:45:00 GMT
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In a message to All <02 Jan 93 17:54> Jack Sarfatti wrote:

 JS> FTL drives? Time travel? I believe them not impossible. So why not build
 JS> the damned things and see if they work?

Hear, hear!  People have been literally trying to do so in their garages and barns and basements for some little while.  Have any succeeded?  Nothing but anecdotes to tantalize us.

One nuclear engineer (specialty:  magnetic containment) in the NY area seems to have made some progress, but unfortunately he died when his house flew apart a few years back.

 JS> If it's a question of money, then how much? If an organization HAD the
 JS> funds,
 JS> who do you hire?

 JS> Or am I missing something? (Please don't harp about research costs- I know
 JS> all about it- and I still wanna know How Much and Who).
 JS>                                                             "

Your list is certainly a good starting-off point.

 JS> As you note it takes money. The
 JS> credibility barrier and a depressed economy
 JS> inhibit investment although Clinton's R&D investment tax credits if
 JS> implemented may change that. The only money in this area is Church's
 JS> funding of Puthoff's zero-point energy research at Zeus - which is good.
 JS> I need about $1,000,000/year for 10 years to fund a small group of
 JS> theorists to keep abreast of the work of Kip Thorne, David Deuthsch, Yakir
 JS> Aharonov,Igor Novikov and other visionaries (Roger Penrose) working on
 JS> real time-travel physics - as well as to explore my new "minimally non
 JS> unitary QM" and Steve Weinberg's new non-unitary QM which does permit
 JS> FTL connection communication etc. We would also need a reserve endowment
 JS> of $50,000,000 in case experiments were deemed necessary in that period.
 JS> We would also develop educational multi-media and VR software teaching
 JS> relativity, quantum mechanics etc. to kids who would be the future
 JS> star ship cadets to make Star Trek Real and to fullfill our destiny of
 JS> Space Migration, Intelligence Increase and Life Extension.

Ask Baron de Rothschild or the Ford Foundation.

Your ten-year budget is modest.  That $10,000,000 over ten years would barely pay for the concrete moulds for the Superconducting Supercollider.

Perhaps if a few meetings or teleconferences between the folks could be arranged, a few thought-experiments and simple tests could be formulated to test them?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the Einstein conspiracy (TM)??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 93 12:01:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (toad) writes:
> [e-mail] (Chris Morken) writes:
>
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) w
>> >Can anyone out there provide me with info on the idea I've heard floating
>> >around that Einstein actually finished his unified field theory (but, of
>> >course, it was covered up by the gov't and is being used in secret UFO
>> >experiments or something)??
>>
>> No, I'm quite confident that Einstein couldn't have finished his Unified
>> Theory, because he was wrong about a few major aspects of the theory, like
>> for instance he refused to believe in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
>> Einsteins's attempt at a theory seemed to work on a large-scale, but fails
>> when the normally weak force of gravity becomes very large due to something
>> such as a black hole.  Without aceptance of the uncertainty principle he
>> could never come up with a Unified Theory.
>>
>> cmorken
>
> just for the record,
>    Einstein did publish a few versions of his unified field theory,
> though published in German scientific papers, they were not thought of as
> being satisfactory to him, so his studies kept him going on the basis of
> a theory that would better satisfy what he was trying to attain. However,
> it should be fairly easy to get these older versions - Try sci.physics
> for more information - perhaps someone from the European  community might
> help you with that.

His book "The meaning of relativity" outlines the general form that any
unified theory would have to (in Einstein's view) take. It then sort
of gets stuck. My copy of the book has about 30 pages missing towards
the end in the GR and Unified Field chapters which doesn't help matters
... Not that I think this is a conspiracy -- just a cock up by the
printers which most readers never notice :-)

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:39 EST
Subject: Re: Alien Past.
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-1353180072:peg:422800040:000:164
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Jan 11 23:39:00 1993
Lines: 8


G'day Jeorg.....

Maybe you 'live on planet x until you receive and integrate the lessons]
of planet x life and then move on?

Juz a thought....Regards >:-} Photon

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: reply EINSTEINS UNIFIED
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:46:55 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
>Subject: Re: reply EINSTEINS UNIFIED
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:08:06 GMT

>Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94 ([e-mail]) wrote:
>: I've seen a book about the unified field theory at our library. Also read
>: thar Einstein didn't want to release this work, he meant that we weren't

>: ready to use the knowledge properly.
>:
>: Trond K. Lindanger
>: - Your friend in NORWAY


>Just interested...any idea what this (these?) book(s) are called?



My information is based upon the following two books:

  1. A book about the UNIFIED FIELD THEORY
     Comment : I'll check out the title as soon as possible and return it
           to this newsgroup!

  2. A book from which the Einstein point of view upon the field theory
     was taken.
     Title   : "The Philadelphia experiment"
     Comment : Was mentioned in a short sentence. Maybe somebody else could
           write what page etc., I don't remember...
Xref: icaen soc.culture.china:70953 alt.alien.visitors:12482
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From: [e-mail] (Larry Klaes)
Subject: Electronic Journal of the ASA (EJASA) - January 1993
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: SETI, China, EJASA
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                          THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF
                  THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC

                      Volume 4, Number 6 - January 1993

                         ###########################

                              TABLE OF CONTENTS

                         ###########################

          * ASA Membership and Article Submission Information

          * Conference Preview: The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
            (SETI) in the Optical Spectrum - Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley

          * A Visit to China

                         ###########################

                         ASA MEMBERSHIP INFORMATION

        The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
    (EJASA) is published monthly by the Astronomical Society of the
    Atlantic, Incorporated.  The ASA is a non-profit organization dedicated
    to the advancement of amateur and professional astronomy and space
    exploration, as well as the social and educational needs of its members.

        ASA membership application is open to all with an interest in
    astronomy and space exploration.  Members receive the Journal of the
    ASA (hardcopy sent through United States Mail - Not a duplicate of this
    Electronic Journal) and the Astronomical League's REFLECTOR magazine.
    Members may also purchase discount subscriptions to ASTRONOMY and
    SKY & TELESCOPE magazines.

        For information on membership, you may contact the Society at any
    of the following addresses:

        Astronomical Society of the Atlantic (ASA)
        c/o Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy (CHARA)
        Georgia State University (GSU)
        Atlanta, Georgia  30303
        U.S.A.

        [e-mail]

        ASA BBS: [phone], 300/1200/2400 Baud.

        or telephone the Society Recording at [phone] to leave your
    address and/or receive the latest Society news.

        ASA Officers and Council -

        President - Don Barry
        Vice President - Nils Turner
        Secretary - Ingrid Siegert-Tanghe
        Treasurer - Mike Burkhead
        Directors - Bill Bagnuolo, Eric Greene, Tano Scigliano
        Council - Bill Bagnuolo, Bill Black, Mike Burkhead, Frank Guyton,
                  Larry Klaes, Ken Poshedly, Jim Rouse, Tano Scigliano,
                  John Stauter, Wess Stuckey, Harry Taylor, Gary Thompson,
                  Cindy Weaver, Bob Vickers


                             ARTICLE SUBMISSIONS

        Article submissions to the EJASA on astronomy and space exploration
    are most welcome.  Please send your on-line articles in ASCII format to
    Larry Klaes, EJASA Editor, at the following net addresses or the above
    Society addresses:

        [e-mail]
        or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes
        or - [e-mail]
        or - [e-mail]

        You may also use the above addresses for EJASA back issue requests,
    letters to the editor, and ASA membership information.

        When sending your article submissions, please be certain to include
    either a network or regular mail address where you can be reached, a
    telephone number, and a brief biographical sketch.

        Back issues of the EJASA are also available from anonymous FTP
    at chara.gsu.edu (131.96.5.29)

                                DISCLAIMER

        Submissions are welcome for consideration.  Articles submitted,
    unless otherwise stated, become the property of the Astronomical
    Society of the Atlantic, Incorporated.  Though the articles will not
    be used for profit, they are subject to editing, abridgment, and other
    changes.  Copying or reprinting of the EJASA, in part or in whole, is
    encouraged, provided clear attribution is made to the Astronomical
    Society of the Atlantic, the Electronic Journal, and the author(s).
    Opinions expressed in the EJASA are those of the authors' and not
    necessarily those of the ASA.  This Journal is Copyright (c) 1993
    by the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic, Incorporated.


                              CONFERENCE PREVIEW

              THE SEARCH FOR EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (SETI)
                            IN THE OPTICAL SPECTRUM

                           by Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley
                   Fiberdyne Optoelectronics, Columbus, Ohio

        From the author of the January 1992 six-part EJASA (THE ELECTRONIC
    JOURNAL OF THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC) article (Vol. 3,
    No. 6A-6F) on Optical SETI (OSETI).

        The author would like to acknowledge that this Electronic Journal
    has been instrumental in the organization of this conference, for
    without last January's publication, this author would not have been
    invited by SPIE to put this conference together.

        You are encouraged to remail this material to anyone you know with
    interests in SETI or to print it out and pin it up on your astronomical
    society, company, faculty, or school notice board.  Some of the
    following material was featured in the October 1992 issue of EJASA
    (Vol. 4, No. 3) and the December 1992 issue of SPIE's OE REPORTS:


        Almost three years ago I began "lobbying" the scientific community
    to reconsider the optical approach to the electromagnetic search for
    extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI), first described by Nobel laureate
    Charles Townes (1964 - masers/lasers) in 1961.  Unfortunately, many of
    the strongest proponents for electromagnetic SETI have become dogmatic
    and will not countenance open discussion of alternatives to microwave
    SETI, believing that the issue of the relative efficiencies of microwave
    and optical SETI was settled years ago in favor of microwaves.  Optical
    SETI has received very poor press ever since the skewed ETI laser
    transmitter assumptions in the Project Cyclops report, two decades ago.
    This NASA design study report described a microwave array consisting of
    up to nine hundred 100-meter diameter dishes which if fully built would
    have occupied an area 6.4 kilometers in diameter and cost, in 1970s
    currency, some ten billion dollars.  This grand project was never fun-
    ded but the report itself has had a profound effect on SETI thinking.

        In the comparison table that appeared on page 50 of that report, the
    optical system modeled described an interstellar laser communication
    system that employed a 1.06 micron Nd:YAG laser, and a 22.5 cm diameter
    transmitting telescope.  There were various reasons for limiting the
    aperture of the ETI transmitter.  One reason arose out of unnecessarily
    constraining both parts of the system to operate on a planetary surface,
    within an atmosphere, and thus be limited by the atmospheric coherence
    cell size.  Another reason was to avoid the production of beams that
    were smaller than the zones of life around nearby targeted stars.
    However, the net effect was to cripple the potential very high Effective
    Isotropic Radiated Power (EIRP) of the optical transmitters.

        It would be far better to build larger transmitting telescopes and
    defocus them when targeting nearby stars, if, in the unlikely event,
    the ETI civilization did not possess the technical prowess to aim narrow
    beams into nearby stars.  In this way, the long-range EIRP would not be
    unnecessarily degraded.  The modeled "toy" ETI uplink telescopes put
    the onus on the young and technically immature receiving civilization
    (humanity) to build very large and expensive telescopes to receive weak
    signals from mature ETI civilizations, instead of the converse.  It
    was this part of an otherwise excellent report that so distorted its
    conclusions concerning the efficacy and relative cost (to us) of the
    optical approach to SETI.

        If we allow for transmitting and receiving apertures to be 10 meters
    in diameter or larger, it can be shown for transmitter powers comparable
    to those for microwave systems that relatively small diffraction-
    limited laser systems are capable of supporting far higher signal-to-
    noise ratios and data rates than the much larger microwave systems.  The
    extremely high gains of optical antennas more than make up for the
    additional quantum noise and stellar background radiation noise.  The
    lack of (currently) easily identifiable "magic optical frequencies",
    equivalent to the microwave waterhole between 1.420 and 1.662 GHz, save
    for the major CO2 transition at 10.6 microns, is not a reason to
    conclude that ETIs would not use lasers to signal Earth.  Indeed, the
    effectiveness of pulsed laser signals is so high that there is less
    need to be concerned about the exact laser frequency.

        Indeed, from the viewpoint of communications with extraterrestrial
    intelligences (CETI), which is not presently being proposed, terrene SDI
    lasers of the late Twentieth Century are certainly capable of "reaching
    out and touching ETIs" across one thousand or more light years.  The
    problem today is that we do not know where to point our lasers and we
    lack the means to provide precise forward predictive targeting of
    extrasolar planets.  Even more basic to this problem is that direct
    visual observations of other planets around nearby star systems await
    the technological developments of the next century.  In the meantime,
    we must take the passive and perhaps safer approach of listening for
    ETI signals.

        Let it be noted here that the word "optical" is used in a manner
    familiar to optoelectronics (photonics) engineers and scientists, as
    an umbrella term.  It is a superset of both "visible" and "infrared."
    The word "optical" is not to be taken as being synonymous with the word
    "visible", since the former (for communication engineers) covers all
    electromagnetic frequencies from the far-infrared to the ultra-violet.

        Last year, OE REPORTS had an interview with Dr. Monte Ross of Laser
    Data Technology Inc., in which he described his thoughts about the
    search for extraterrestrial intelligence in the optical spectrum.  At
    that time, I was unaware of Dr. Ross's work.  Last January, I had just
    published electronically on Internet a very long paper on the subject
    in this Electronic Journal.  This was the six-part article in THE
    ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC (EJASA,
    Vol. 3, No. 6A-6F).

        As a result of my electronic paper, during the summer I was asked
    by Dr. David L. Begley of Ball Aerospace Systems Group to organize a
    special session on Optical SETI (OSETI) for SPIE as part of the OE/LASE
    '93 symposium.  David Begley is the previous chairman of the Free-Space
    Laser Communications conferences.  The Optical SETI event was originally
    planned to be a single session in SPIE's Free-Space Laser Communication
    Technologies V conference, chaired by Dr. Stephen Mecherle of TRW, Inc.

        Even though summer was a difficult time to start organizing a
    conference, I was able to get so many papers at short notice that the
    single session was extended into a dedicated conference with three
    sessions and a separate published proceedings.  The latter will be
    available as SPIE Volume 1867 after the conference and will constitute
    the first publication on this subject.  The conference will be held
    on January 21-22, 1993 at the Los Angeles Airport Hilton Hotel and
    immediately follows the Free-Space Laser Communication Technologies V
    conference.  The Optical SETI conference cochair will be Monte Ross.
    This event is effectively, though unofficially, the First International
    Conference on Optical SETI.

        This SETI event will be of particular interest to laser communi-
    cations scientists and engineers.  It presents the opportunity to help
    resolve the dichotomy within NASA that while lasers are fine for GEO
    to GEO, GEO to LEO, deep space, and interstellar communications, ETIs
    would not use such technology to signal emerging technical civilizations
    (us).  The first session will bring the laser communications community
    up to speed on microwave (conventional) SETI and general SETI related
    matters.  The second and third sessions are specifically devoted to
    optical SETI topics.  Many shades of opinion are included.

        We are fortunate in being able to have Arthur C. Clarke kick off
    this conference from his home in Sri Lanka.  This will be a videotaped
    address.  These days, Clarke's health precludes extensive traveling. We
    are also investigating the possibility that NASA Select TV could cover
    the entire conference on a live or tape-delayed basis.  If you cannot
    attend this conference but would like to see it transmitted by NASA
    Select, write to SPIE and NASA Headquarters requesting this coverage.
    The more people lobby for this, the more likely is the cooperation of
    the concerned parties.  For those with a TVRO (TeleVision Receive Only)
    satellite dish, NASA Select TV is available on Satcom F2R (72 W),
    Transponder 13.

        Among the 16 papers scheduled:  Dr. David Brocker, who heads NASA's
    High Resolution Microwave Survey, will give the keynote paper on NASA's
    search for evidence of extraterrestrial technologies (Dr. Peter Backus
    will now be presenting this paper).  Drs. David Latham and David
    Soderblom will discuss the strategies for the SETI star targeting
    survey and Drs. Michael Klein and Samuel Gulkis from JPL will describe
    the high-resolution all-sky survey.  The "Grand Old Man" of SETI,
    Dr. Bernard M. Oliver, who is extremely critical of the optical
    approach, will demonstrate for the first time to the laser communi-
    cations community why ETIs would not use lasers for SETI interstellar
    communications.  Professor Frank Tipler, a strong critic of SETI, will
    explain why both microwave and optical SETI is a waste of time, since
    he thinks that we are the first civilization in the Milky Way galaxy.

        Philosopher Clive Goodall will rebut Frank Tipler's arguments, and
    Noted philosopher Professor Neil Tennant will present his view of why
    there could be major problems in actually decoding the message on an ETI
    signal.  This may be the first time that philosophers have presented
    papers at a "technical" meeting on SETI, particularly one organized by
    SPIE.  Dr. Guillermo Lemarchand will describe both radio and optical
    SETI activities in Argentina and give an account of the MANIA optical
    SETI project devised by the late Professor Shvartsman of the former
    Soviet Union.  Drs. John Rather and Monte Ross (conference co-chairman)
    will give accounts of their approaches to interstellar laser communi-
    cations, while this author will present a review paper and describe the
    amateur approach to optical SETI.  There will be a discussion at the end
    of the conference, moderated by Charles Townes, who earlier will talk
    about his CO2 optical SETI laser work, and the CO2 OSETI observations
    being conducted by Dr. Albert Betz on Mount Wilson.

        Note that as with previous SETI publications, the latest book by
    SETI pioneer Professor Frank Drake and Dava Sobel IS ANYONE OUT THERE?
    hardly mentions the optical approach.  This conference intends to
    redress that omission.  This "controversial" OSETI conference should be
    a "fun" event but you do not need to be a laser communications engineer
    or SETI scientist to attend - you only need a curiosity about "our"
    place in the grand scheme of things.

        With large telescopes, Optical SETI is the one branch of visible
    astronomy, save for solar astronomy, that can be done during the day
    under a clear blue sky!

        Last October, we saw the celebration of the Quincentennial of
    Christopher Columbus's voyage to the Americas and the official start
    of NASA's Microwave Observing Project (MOP), recently renamed the High
    Resolution Microwave Survey (HRMS).  Numerous articles on SETI have
    appeared in recent magazine publications, including the September 1992
    issue of LIFE, the October issue of ASTRONOMY, and the November/December
    issue of SMITHSONIAN AIR & SPACE.  See also recent issues of TIME and
    NEWSWEEK.  The November issue of SKY & TELESCOPE has a long article
    about microwave SETI and mentions the optical approach.  This is
    probably the first published popular account of modern OSETI in the
    printed media.  See the bibliography at the end of this article.

        I have also begun the construction of what I believe to be the
    world's first amateur optical SETI (AMOSETI) Observatory.  This will be
    based around the Meade 10-inch LX200 Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope, and is
    one of the most advanced on the market today for use under computer and
    CCD control.  In the last paper of the conference, I will be reporting
    on the amateur approach to Optical SETI and any work done to date on my
    observatory system.  In many respects, the approach adopted by the
    author for AMOSETI is similar to that employed by Shvartsman and Beskin
    in the MANIA project, i.e., looking for very short pulses rather than CW
    beacon signals.   It is possible that AMOSETI will lead to a renaissance
    in amateur astronomy, where light pollution - the bane of astronomers -
    has no effect on ETI detection sensitivity!

        At this time during the sharp decline in the industrial-military
    complex, can there be a more ennobling way for defense conversion - to
    turn laser swords into SETI or CETI plowshares and help discover that we
    are not alone within the Milky Way galaxy?  Monte and I look forward to
    seeing you at this conference at the rebirth of a new branch of science.

        About the Author -

        Stuart A. Kingsley is a fiber optic consultant and Director of the
    world's first Amateur Optical SETI Observatory.  He received a B.Sc.
    Honors and Ph.D. in Electronic and Electrical Engineering from The
    City University, London (1972) and University College London (1984),
    respectively (England).  He worked at Battelle Columbus Division as
    Principal Research Scientist and then as Senior Research Scientist from
    1981 to 1987.  He has been involved in producing a variety of fiber-
    optic sensors, including fiber-optic rotation sensors.  He invented
    the fiber-optic line-stretcher and fiber-optic line-squeezer phase
    modulators that are now important components in fiber-optic sensor
    systems.  He shared a 1984 Rank Prize in Optoelectronics for pioneering
    work on fiber-optic sensing.

        Stuart's other professional interests include the possible health
    effects of electromagnetic pollution and adverse effects from fluor-
    escent lighting/VDT flicker.  He is the author of 38 papers in fiber-
    optics, mainly related to coherent systems and distributed fiber-optic
    sensing, and several patents mainly in the area of coherent fiber-optic
    systems.  He is a member of the IEE, a British Chartered Engineer, a
    senior member of IEEE and a member of Eta Kappa Nu Association.  He
    is also a member of The Planetary Society, the Columbus Astronomical
    Society, and a former member of the Astronomical Society of Haringey
    (ASH) in London.


                               CONFERENCE PROGRAM

                                   OE/LASE '93

               THE SEARCH FOR EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (SETI)
                             IN THE OPTICAL SPECTRUM

                            SPIE Proceedings Vol. 1867

    Location: Los Angeles Airport Hilton Hotel, Los Angeles, California,
    U.S.A.

    Conference Chairman: Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley, Fiberdyne Optoelectronics.
    Co-chair: Dr. Monte Ross, Laser Data Technology, Inc.

    Room: Pacific A


             SESSION 1 - INTRODUCTION AND CONVENTIONAL MICROWAVE SETI

    Session Chairman - Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley, Fiberdyne Optoelectronics.

    Thursday, January 21, 1993

    Afternoon
    1:20 to 5:00 pm

        1:20 pm
        Opening Remarks
        Stuart A. Kingsley, Fiberdyne Optoelectronics


        1.30 pm
        "Let there be light"
        (Videotaped Keynote Address)
        Arthur C. Clarke
        Chancellor - International Space University, Sri Lanka.
        (1867-01)


        2:00 pm
        "The NASA search for evidence of extraterrestrial technologies"
        (Keynote Paper)
        David Brocker
        Project Manager, HRMS
        SETI Office
        NASA Ames Research Center
        (1867-02)


        2:30 pm
        "Strategies for SETI target selection"
        Dr. David W. Latham and Dr. David R. Soderblom
        Dr. David W. Latham
        Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

        Dr. David R. Soderblom
        Associate Astronomer
        Space Telescope Science Institute
        (1867-03)


        2:50 pm
        "High-resolution microwave all-sky survey"
        Dr. Michael J. Klein and Dr. Samuel Gulkis
        Dr. Michael J. Klein
        HRMS Program Manager
        Jet Propulsion Laboratory

        Dr. Samuel Gulkis
        Jet Propulsion Laboratory
        (1867-04)


        3:10 to 3:30 pm
        Coffee Break


        3:30 pm
        "SETI - a waste of time!"
        (Invited Paper)
        Professor Frank Tipler
        Physics Department
        Tulane University
        (1867-05)


        4:00 pm
        "Using modern analytical philosophy (MAP) to sweep the MOP clean:
        Non-optical reflections upon untapped data, bad arguments and the
        nonexistence of Von Neumann interstellar probes."
        Clive Goodall
        Department of Philosophy
        The Ohio State University
        (1867-06)


        4:30 pm
        "The decoding problem: do we need to search for extra terrestrial
        intelligence to Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence?"
        Professor Neil W. Tennant
        Department of Philosophy
        The Ohio State University
        (1867-07)


        5:00 pm
        Combined reception for the authors from this conference and the
        Free-Space Laser Communications V conference.


                            SESSION 2 - OPTICAL SETI I

    Session Chairman - Dr. Monte Ross, Laser Data Technology, Inc.

    Friday, January 22, 1993

    Morning
    8:30 to 11:45 am

     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    |                             Special Event                            |
    |                                                                      |
    |   8:30 am                                                            |
    |   Technical attendees will have the opportunity to participate in a  |
    |   15-minute question/answer period with Arthur C. Clarke             |
    |   (in Sri Lanka) via phone hook-up.                                  |
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        8:45 am
        "Fundamental factors affecting the optimum frequency range for SETI"
        (Invited Paper)
        Dr. Bernard M. Oliver
        Deputy Chief, NASA SETI Office
        NASA Ames Research Center
        (1867-08)


        9:15 am
        "The search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) in the optical
        spectrum and professional optical SETI: a review"
        Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley
        President
        Fiberdyne Optoelectronics
        (1867-09)


        9:45 pm
        "An economic rationale for extraterrestrials using lasers for SETI"
        Dr. Monte Ross
        President
        Laser Data Technology, Inc.
        (1867-10)


        10:05 to 10:35 am
        Coffee Break


        10:35 am
        "Infrared SETI"
        Professor Charles H. Townes
        Department of Physics
        Space Sciences Laboratory
        University of California, Berkeley
        (1867-11)


        11:05 am
        "Use of lasers for interstellar beacons, communications and travel"
        Dr. John Rather
        NASA Headquarters
        (1867-12)


        11:25 am
        "Optical SETI from the southern hemisphere"
        Dr. Guillermo A. Lemarchand, Dr. Gregory M. Beskin,
        Dr. Fernando R. Colomb, and Dr. Mariano Mendez
        Dr. Guillermo A. Lemarchand
        Visiting Fellow
        Center for Radiophysics and
        Space Research
        Cornell University

        Dr. Gregory M. Beskin
        Special Astrophysical Observatory
        Soviet Academy of Science

        Dr. Fernando Raul Colomb
        Director
        Instituto Argentino de Radioastronomia

        Dr. Mariano Mendez
        Researcher
        Observatorio Astronomico de La Plata
        (1867-13)


        11:45 am to 1:00 pm
        Lunch


                            SESSION 3 - OPTICAL SETI II

    Session Chairman - Dr. James R. Lesh, Jet Propulsion Laboratory

    Friday, January 22, 1993

    Afternoon
    1:00 to 2:00 pm

        1:00 pm
        "Application of one measure of search merit to optical SETI"
        Dr. D. Kent Cullers
        Signal Detection Sub-System Manager
        SETI Project
        NASA Ames Research Center
        (1867-14)


        1:20 pm
        "Large M-ary pulse position modulation and photon buckets for
        effective interstellar communications"
        Dr. Monte Ross
        President
        Laser Data Technology, Inc.
        (1867-15)


        1:40 pm
        "Amateur optical SETI"*
        Dr. Stuart A. Kingsley
        President
        Fiberdyne Optoelectronics
        (1867-16)


        "Recent progress in deep-space optical communication
        (Proceedings Only)
        Dr. James R. Lesh
        Jet Propulsion Laboratory
        (1867-17)


        Workshop/Panel Discussion
        2.30 - 4.30 pm
        Moderator - Professor Charles H. Townes, 1964 Nobel Prize Laureate,
        University of California, Berkeley.


        Closing Remarks
        4.30 pm
        Stuart A. Kingsley, Fiberdyne Optoelectronics
        Monte Ross, Laser Data Technology, Inc.


  * The last conference paper will give preliminary details of the design of
    the world's first Amateur Optical SETI Observatory, presently under
    construction in the author's backyard.

                                ---------------

        To receive a copy of the Advance Technical Program from SPIE which
    also provides information about registration, accommodation and costs to
    attend this conference (see details below), contact Rosa Cays
    ([e-mail]) or Terry Montonye ([e-mail]) at:

        SPIE
        P.O. Box 10
        Bellingham
        WA 98227-0010
        Tel: [phone]
        Fax: [phone]


        For more information, the conference organizer Stuart Kingsley can
        be contacted at:

        Fiberdyne Optoelectronics
        545 Northview Drive
        Columbus
        Ohio 43209
        Tel: [phone]
        Fax: [phone]
        OSETI Bulletin Board System (BBS): [phone]
        Internet: [e-mail]
        CompuServe: 72376,3545


    OE/LASE '93 includes symposia over the period 16-23 January 1993 on the
    following subjects:

    Free-Space Laser Communications V (January 20-21, 1993).
    The Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) in the Optical
    Spectrum (January 21-22, 1993).
    Laser Engineering (January 17-22, 1993).
    Optoelectronic Processing and Interconnects (January 17-23, 1993).
    Biomedical Optics '93 (January 16-22, 1993).

        There are also educational short courses (January 17-22, 1993) and
    two technical exhibitions, the Medical Exhibition (January 16-17, 1993),
    and the Laser and Sensor Exhibition (January 19-21, 1993).


    Registration
                              Member         Working         Non-
                                              Group         Member
    Full Conference*          $355            $380           $415
    Author (full conf.)       $290            $310           $340
    One day                   $165            $175           $190
    Author (one day)          $140            $150           $165
    Students (no lunch)       $ 60            $N/A           $ 70

    *Rate for a three-day conference.

    **There is no separate registration rate for the SETI conference.

        Attendees for the SETI conference will have to pay for two days.  If
    you can spare the time, attendees are recommended to take in the
    Wednesday morning and afternoon, and Thursday morning sessions of the
    Free-Space Laser Communication Technologies V conference, as this
    technology is very relevant to Optical SETI.  The cost for the full
    conference period (three days) is little more than for the two day OSETI
    conference alone.


    SPIE Proceedings Volume 1867              $ 35

        These proceedings will also include a copy of Dr. Lesh's large
    review paper on NASA's optical communications activities, which is to
    be presented at the Free-Space Laser Communication Technologies V
    conference.


    Accommodation

    Los Angeles Airport Hilton Hotel (OE/LASE '93 Conference Center)
    5711 West Century Boulevard
    Los Angeles, California 90045, USA
    Tel: [phone]
    Fax: [phone]

    Rates:
    Single or double (government)              $81
    Single or double                           $89 - $109


    Los Angeles Airport Marriott Hotel
    5855 West Century Boulevard
    Los Angeles, California 90045, USA
    Tel: [phone]
    Fax: [phone]

    Rates:
    Single or double (government)              $80
    Single or double                           $85 - $105


      Bibliography -

        EJASA, Volume 3, Number 6, Parts 6A-6F, January 1992.

        EJASA, Volume 4, Number 3, October 1992.

        SKY & TELESCOPE, November 1992, pp. 513.

        LASER FOCUS WORLD, November 1992, p. 5.

        PHOTONICS SPECTRA, December 1992, p. 10.

        OE REPORTS, December 1992, pp. 1 and 3.

        COLUMBUS MONTHLY, January 1993, pp. 77-78, 80.



                              A VISIT TO CHINA

        From November 2 to 7, 1992, ASA member Paul J. Wiita of GSU's
    Department of Physics and Astronomy attended the "Workshop on
    Accretion and Jets" at the Huazhong (Central China) Normal University
    in Wuhan, on the mighty Yangtze (Yellow) River.

        Over thirty-five Chinese astronomers from about one dozen
    universities and observatories attended, along with one Japanese
    and three American participants.  Twelve invited and twenty-six
    contributed oral papers were presented.  Wiita gave two invited
    lectures on "Observations and Theoretical Models for Microvariablity
    in Active Galactic Nuclei", which were very well received.

        When Professor Hanawa from Nagoya University had to leave early,
    Paul was asked to give an additional talk on "The Propagation of Radio
    Jets through Galactic Halos and the Intracluster Medium", which had to
    be prepared from memory.  This meeting was originally scheduled for
    June 6 to 11 of 1989, but the confrontation in Tianamen Square in
    the capital city of Beijing caused it to be postponed.

        At the time, most Chinese seemed to feel free to discuss politics
    in private, but were still wary of public conversations.  Nevertheless,
    Paul's introductory remarks indicating that he hoped all astronomers -
    including the exiled leading astrophysicist Fang Lizhi - would be able
    to participate in the next meeting in Wuhan drew strong applause.

        The hospitality was extraordinary, with Professor Yang Lantian and
    the other hosts providing all facilities, including sumptuous banquets
    every lunch and dinner (not to mention massive breakfasts).  A tour of
    local attractions, including the huge East Lake with its many parks,
    towers, and gardens and the 57-meter (180-foot) tall Yellow Crane
    Pagoda was arranged for the participants.

        After the meeting, Wiita and a few other lecturers went on a trip
    to the ancient capital Xi'an (where the famous terra-cotta army of the
    First Emperor is displayed), as well as to Beijing, and a visit to the
    incomparable Great Wall.

        All of the foreign participants were impressed with the economic
    strides China has made over the past fifteen years. The standard of
    living of the average person is clearly quite adequate.  The shops are
    full of a very wide range of goods, including VCRs, eight-millimeter
    camcorders, and, most importantly, telescopes.


      THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY OF THE ATLANTIC

                         January 1993 - Vol. 4, No. 6

                           Copyright (c) 1993 - ASA

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12483 talk.religion.newage:13485
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm!jls19
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:35:19 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Aliens and "Mary's Message to the World"
Lines: 25

This book, "Mary's Message to the World" is by Annie Kirkwood and she talks
about the role the aliens will play in the upcoming earth changes.  She also
states how our government has been covering up the information regarding the
aliens and also the changes that are occuring in our solar system, even now.
They are doing these things in order not to alarm us, but we must be made
aware of what is to come in order to prepare.  She also states how religions
are censoring her messages, thus she is appearing to those with no religious
afiliations in order to get the message to ALL peoples.

She even talks about how humans are going to be changed, altered genetically
in the aftertimes.  Yes, remember Don Showen's story on altering the DNA!
She speaks of our DNA being changed!  She explains many things, what areas
of the world will be affected, gives a general time frame, and also she
explains the symbolisms and misconceptions that religions have had about the
intepretations of Revelations in the Bible.

I feel it is well worth reading, excellent book.  Will these things come
true?  Well, only time will tell.  But it does do a wonderful job of
explaining the falicies of organized religions and neatly ties our earth's
religious stories and future happenings in with our role in the universe and
with the other beings that inhabit it.

My rating: ****

Planet
Xref: icaen soc.culture.china:70954 alt.alien.visitors:12484
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!wupost!darwin.sura.net!news.udel.edu!brahms.udel.edu!gbc
From: [e-mail] (Baochun Ge)
Subject: SOCCER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: brahms.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:07:38 GMT
Lines: 7


Hellow Guys:

    I know Chinese soccer team beat Poland Olympic and
Moscow teams 5:1 and 3:1 seperately in Singapore. But who
won the champain after all, China or South Korea ? Information
much appreciated.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pleiadian problems
Date: 11 Jan 1993 14:35:39 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mr G S Sutherland) says:
>
>Peter T. ([e-mail])wrote :
>
>+> A few sources state that the Pleiadians no longer visit us because they
>+> have "problems at home" that
>+> they must attend to.
>+> Does anybody know what these problems are supposed to be?
>+> Thankyou
>+> Peter T.
>
>Jeff ([e-mail]) wrote :
>
>+ I would be interested to hear about your sources.
>+
>+ Jeff-
To this question I have already posted an answer, which I posted on the 10th. Since your message was posted on the
8th {give or take a little for time zones} , it is interesting how it popped up after mine? Are you on a permanent link or
temp? Anyway if you go back over the articles you should find it.
>
>        I'd like to third that, and also add that there seems to be a
>number of people who take the Pleidian message (from Channellers) to be
>gospel. If there spirituality, philosophy or theology is in wide use at
>home, then it may well be causing trouble. (Assuming that it is genuine.)
>If so, then surely it is rather foolish to base one's life on it.
>
>                Graeme.
Asking a question on a particular subject does'nt have to mean that I beleive in it.
To use another example: When reading a good thriller, aren't you interested in whether the butler did it?
then again maybe you're not , buy it goes to some degree to explain my point of view.
To be honest I'm not all that much interested in "new-age" stuff, choo choo trains and the like, but if I read
someting {no matter how gullible or otherwise} and I'm left with a question that will not go away, I will ask it.

Peter T.
I'm just one of Deep Thought's sub-routines.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!olivea!apple!netcomsv!netcomsv!hotcity!mlink!davidt
From: [e-mail] (David T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: What do I do when...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 93 05:23:22 GMT
Organization: the ModemLink Network, Long Island, New York
Lines: 2

Just out of curiosity what should I or anyone else do if visited by an ET? Run,
pull out the video camera, or submit to their requests???
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!cd.amdahl.com!jjs40
From: [e-mail] (John Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dimensional Thought-Lab
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:43:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>,
> JS> FTL drives? Time travel? I believe them not impossible. So why not build
> JS> the damned things and see if they work?
>
>Hear, hear!  People have been literally trying to do so in their garages and
>barns and basements for some little while.  Have any succeeded?  Nothing but
>anecdotes to tantalize us.
>
>One nuclear engineer (specialty:  magnetic containment) in the NY area
>seems to have made some progress, but unfortunately he died when his house
>flew apart a few years back.

Now think about this carefully.  What would you *expect* to happen if you
turned on an FTL drive in your basement?

--
John Sullivan, Engineer/Computer Development.      Email: [e-mail]
Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA.                  Phone: [phone]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13487 alt.alien.visitors:12488 sci.skeptic:36824
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!uw-beaver!fluke!emery
From: [e-mail] (John Emery)
Subject: Re: Satan Information.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:19:10 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>  Let me be truthful now and state that many of you are concerned with me
>sending E-mail to Satan . Let me now confess that I realize that this person
>who says he is Satan is not really Satan.

The truth comes out.  At least you came out in the open and made your
confession.  May God be merciful.

>John Winston.



--
John Emery            I am an alien!
[e-mail]
                1 Peter 2:11, John 16:17


Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12489 sci.physics:35338 sci.skeptic:36826
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Anti-Gravity?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:02:03 GMT
Lines: 90



Has you ever heard of this effect before?  Is there a patent
related to this?

Gravitational Propulsion

     Well, I have gotten this far in explaining some things to
you. I might as well turn to my favorite subject of all --
gravitational propulsion. The best place to start is with the
efforts of a personal acquaintance of mine who had the good
fortune to meet in England -- Mr. J. R. Searl. His investigations
into gravitational propulsion have proven to be quite revealing --
he's done it, and I want to tell you about it.
     In 1949, he was employed by the Midlands Board as an
electronic fitter. He was very enthusiastic about the subject of
electricity, though he had no formal education on the subject
other than was required by his job. Unhindered by conventional
ideas about electricity, he carried out his own investigation into
the subject. During work on electrical motors and generators, he
noticed that a small electromotive force (EMF) was produced by the
spinning metal parts -- the negative toward the outside and the
positive toward the rotational axis.
     In 1950, he experimented with rotating slip rings and
measured a small EMF on a conventional meter. He also noticed that
when the rings were spinning freely and no electrical current was
taken, his hair bristled. His conclusions were that free electrons
in the metal were spun out by centrifugal force being produced by
the static field in the metal. He then decided to build a
generator on the same principle.
     It had a segmented rotor disc, passing through electromagnets
at its periphery. The electromagnets were energized from the
rotor, and were intended to boost the EMF.
     By 1952, the first generator had been constructed and was
about three feet in diameter. It was tested in the open by Searl
and a friend. The armature was set in motion by a small engine.
The device produced the expected electrical power, but at an
unexpectedly high potential. At relatively low armature speeds a
potential of the order of 10^5 volts was produced, as indicated by
static effects on nearby objects.
     The really unexpected then occurred. While still speeding up,
the generator lifted and rose to a height of about 50 feet above
the ground, breaking the union between itself and the engine. Here
it stayed for a while, still speeding up and surrounding itself
with a pink glow. This indicated ionization of air at a much
reduced pressure of about 10^-3 mm Hg. More interesting was the
side effect, causing local radio receivers to go on by themselves.
Finally, the whole generator accelerated at a fantastic rate and
is thought to have gone off into space.
     Since that day, Searl and others have made some ten or more
small flying craft, some of which have been similarly lost, and
have developed a form of control. Larger craft have been built --
some 12 feet and two 30 feet in diameter.
     Once the machine has passed a certain threshold of potential
voltage, the energy output exceeds the input. The energy output
seems to be virtually limitless. We made some measurements when I
was there, and as far as we could see, the estimated output is
somewhere in the vicinity of 10^13 to 10^15 watts. Above what
appears to be the threshold potential, some 10^13 volts, the
generator and attached parts become inertia-free. There is also
some "matter snatch" upon acceleration away from the ground, since
it tends to take a little "turf" with it when it goes.
     Analyzing what is happening is fairly easy. What the
generator is doing is placing a "stress" on the ambient space
around it. The space breaks down to provide the magnetism to
relieve the stress, but the energy by-product is absorbed by the
generator, which reinforces the field.
     It should be noted at this point that only a very small
amount of space fabric passes through the craft and an even
smaller amount is converted for energy. However, I have noticed
that small changes in etheric forces lead to large physical
effects. It was aptly demonstrated and I was impressed.
     Recently, Mr. Searl had (1987) a brush with authorities, when
he began simply generating his own power for his own house. Now he
doesn't have a very large house, but the Utility Board didn't like
the fact that they had lost their monopoly. Now he lives in
Birmingham under an assumed name. Simple, eh?
oard didn't like
the fact that they had lost their monopoly. Now he lives in
Birm
--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Venus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 09:43:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I never did have the opportunity of meeting the lady from
Venus who visited the UFO study meetings. My teacher Merle did and only
said that she had very pretty eyes.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13490 alt.alien.visitors:12491
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 11:05:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 67

Subject: Ancient Nuclear Blasts. Part 2.
  Here is some more information about evidence of very hot blasts  of energy
in the past.
   ....One of the oldest cities in the world is thought to be Catal Huyuk in
southcentral  Turkey. Paradoxically, the city appeared, according to first
know evidence, to have been fully civilized and then, suddenly, to have died
out.
  Archaeologists excavating portions of Catal Huyuk found thick layers of
burned brick at one of the levels.  The blocks had been fused together by
such intense heat that its effects penetrated to a depth more than a meter
below the level of the floors where it carbonized the earth, the skeletal
remains of the dead, and the burial gifts that had  been interred with them.
All bacterial decay had been halted by the tremendous heat.
  When a large ziggurat in Babylonia was excavated, it gave the appearance of
having been struck by a terrible fire that had split it down to its
foundation. In other parts of the runs, large sections of brickwork had been
scorched into a vitrified state. Several masses of brickwork had  been
rendered into a completely molten state. Even large boulders found in the
vicinity of the ruins had been vitrified.
  The royal buildings at a north Syrian site had been burned so completely
that the very core of the thick walls had bright red crumbling mud-bricks.
The mud and lime wall plaster had become vitrified and basalt wall slabs
had, in some areasa, actuallly melted.
  Between India's Ganges River and Rajmahal Hills are scorched ruins
containing large masses of stone that  have been fused and hollowed. Certain
travelers who ventured to the heart of the Indian forests have reported
ruins of cities in which the walls have become huge slabs of crystal, due to
some intense heat.
  While exloring Death Valley in 1850, and adventurer, William Walker, claimed
to have come upon the ruins of an ancient city. An end of a large building
within the rubble had had its stones melted and vitrified.
  Today, of course, the area is a sterile disert; but earlier in this article
we have already mentioned the evidence which indicates that Death Valley was
once a tropical paradise, populate by an unknown race of giants.
  This is me JW talking now. While I was in Death Valley in Jan. 1993 I heard
a lecture by the Ranger there and he stated that there was once a lake there
that was about 600 to 700 feet deep, many years ago. Now back to our story.
...Walker stated that the entire region between the Gila and St. John rivers
was spotted with ruins. Each of the ancient settlements had been burned out
and vitrified in part by fire intense enough to have liquefied rock. Paving
blocks and stone houses were split with huge cracks, as if seared by some
monstrous sword of fire.
  The site of Sete Cidades (Seven Cities), Brazil, was first charted in 1928.
The ruins located near the equator in the Province of Piaui, are, according
to some researchers, a monstrous chaos as one might imagine Gomorrah to have
appeared after God's judgment on the ancient city.  The stones are dried
out, destroyed, melted. Although no formal excavation has yet been conducted
at the site, there is no geological explanation to answer how the lumps of
melted rock appeared to dot the surrounding plains.
  In the holy books are lengends of many ancient peoples with innumerable
accounts of wars between the Heavens and the Earth. Cosmic revolutions and
civil wars were said to have rent or split the prehistoric worlds on
serveral occasions. More than one Sodom and Gomorrah exploded so that"..the
smoke rose up like that from a mighty furnace." References to the
destruction of ancient cities by great blasts of neclear-type power and heat
are found in the scriptures of the Hindu and the Hebrew and in the myths of
people as diverse as the American Indian and the African.
  When we were in Peru investigating the massive ruins of such cities as
Sacsahuaman and Machu Piccu and the fascinating villages that dot Lake
Titicaca, certain Shamnans told us that they expect the return of the True
Inkas, the giants of old, to occur in the very near future, quite likely by
the end of this century. We  can only wonder should such an odyssey of  time
and space occor whether the giants of super science in our prehistory will
be favorably impressed with their scattered clony on Earth-Or if we may
anticipate our being the prize in another war of the worlds?
The End.
John Winston.,
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston is not a real person?
Date: 11 Jan 1993 17:49:54 -0600
Organization: University of Confused Thought
Lines: 11
Distribution: usa
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu


Previously [e-mail] (Jeff) wrote:
>Dear Ethan,
>
>get a life.
>Jeff-

Dear Jeff,

get a life.
Scott-
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Jan 93 12:20:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).

1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
accross cattle mutilations. This is when cattle have parts of their bodies cut
out very precisely and all their blood drained out of them. When scientists
examined these mutilated bodies, not a single trace of blood was found either in
the body or on the ground around the body. What I want to know is it possible to
recreate this effect on earth?

2) Crop circles. All are hoaxes. Speaking as a hoaxer myself, I've found that
the "experts" cannot tell a natural circle from a manmade one, so any research
would be pointless.

3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two). I mean, the
Centaurians from Alpha Centauri, I ask you! (For those that don't know, AC is a
star, not a planet).

4) JW isn't mad, just a disinformer.

Thankyou.


The Cursor.
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:57:18 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mailing list please.
Lines: 5

Hey now!
    Please place me on your mailing list.  I would be much obliged.

         Walk in peace,
                    Mike
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From: [e-mail] (Ratboy)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,misc.test,alt.flame,alt.fan.warlord,alt.postmodern,alt.religion.scientology,alt.alien.visitors,rec.pets.cats,rec.motorcycles,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: HAY U GUYS R ALL LUZERZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Date: 11 Jan 1993 19:59:05 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

>M0NTEY PYTH0N SUX CUZ IT D0ESNT MAKE ANY SENSE ????/ U D00DZ SHULD GET A LIFE !!!!!!!1

Is it that time of the month again?
Once a month we get one of these...*sigh*
Talk about getting a life...
Plus, I don't listen to anyone who types in all caps and has no "O" key...

>BTW BY THE WAY ADAM WEST HAS A NEW TV SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joy. Tell it to alt.fan.adam.west or summat...
I'm sure *they* would care.

Ratboy aka WH0 THE HELL *IS* THIS L00ZER, ANYWAY?



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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston is not a real person?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:38:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erickson) writes:
>
>Previously [e-mail] (Jeff) wrote:
>>Dear Ethan,
>>
>>get a life.
>>Jeff-
>
>Dear Jeff,
>
>get a life.
>Scott-

Dear Jeff, Scott, Ethan, George, Mick, Rod, The Woozle Whose Name Was Peanut,
Richard Nixon, Bill, Steve, Angela, Jennifer, Jim, Scaramouche, Scaramouche,
Will You Do The Fandango, Roger, Arthur, Eric, Kibo, Joey, Nigel, Bob, Rob,
Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga and McCormick,

Er...

I've forgotten what I want to say.
    Jason
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Anti-Gravity?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:28:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 34
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com


Robert,

Not to be cynical, but this is nothing but a regurgitation of a variation
of every story I have ever heard about J.R. SEARL. The story is almost
identical every time I hear it. If your personal acquaintance sold you this
information, I suggest you get your money back. It is availiable from a
plethora of sources.
At any rate I find that it is diffiCULT to get any decent information on
him or his reasearch. It also appears he likes it that way. I put him in
the same class as Otis T. Carr......if you have studied anti-gravitational
systems at all, you know what & who I mean.

I am really interested in this form of reasearch & have done quite a bit of
experimenting myself.....no luck YET. As far as people like SEARL & others
of his ilk .....PUT UP OR SHUT UP! No more excuses are necessary. Create
the device & get down to your local TV station & promise the program
director 25% of your profits, guaranteed the Government will not be able to
shut you down.


Don't take it personally,

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Terry Ford)
Subject: Mailing List
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Terry Ford)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:27:30 GMT
Lines: 11

If there is a mailing list out tehre for thsi area, or anything dealing with UFO's, pelase add me to it!
--
Terry Ford [[e-mail]]°°°°°°°°°°°°°°|      'Till
Email responses are more than welcome!°°°°°°°°°°°°°°|      Butter
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°|      Flies!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ParaNet Press Release
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jan 93 08:58:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM) wrote:
>
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David R. Stepien) writes...
> >
> >>The ParaNet UFO CONTINUUM is heard each Sunday evening at 9:00
> >>PM Mountain Time, 11:00 PM Eastern, via satellite Galaxy Six,
> >>Channel 17, Audio Channel 7.5 MHz.
> >
> >What kind of equipment is needed to receive this?
> >
> >David
>
> A home satellite television system, capable of recieving C-band signals is
> necessary.  The audio frequency of a given tv "channel" may be adjusted,
> hence the ability to receive radio.

Isn't there a SW station that broadcasts some UFOnet stuff?

******************************************************************************
Rick Eames                               My Opinions Are My Own (not
Apple's)
[e-mail]
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for Boxer.
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News User)
Nntp-Posting-Host: pc132
Organization: Ostfold College
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:25:44 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anna Anderson) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
>Subject: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
>Date: 10 Jan 93 19:45:27 GMT
>Yesterday's "Unsolved Mysterys" showed a group of English scientists
>in the Stonehenge area who set up cameras in an attempt to catch
>crop circle formations.
>
>The camera caught some hoaxsters, but they alleged to have also filmed
>some apparently genuine formations. All that was said was that they
>were turning the film over to the scientific community for evaluaton, and
>then later to the public.
>
>I'm unsure if this was an old rerun or not. Anyone have any further
>information on this claim?

Hey, gimme a break.. If there really was Aliens lurking around, I'm dure
they'd have better things to do than drawiong funny little sirkles in the
corn field.


          /\           | I didn't say this.      | "When there's no
        /    \         | My supervisor would     |  more room in hell,
      /        \       | kill me if i did.       |  the dead will
    /    (<>)    \     |_________________________|  walk the earth."
  /                \   |Gunnar Horrigmo          |
/____________________\ |[e-mail]|

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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re George Adamski-Fraud?
Date: 12 Jan 1993 05:36:33 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) says:
>
>There is a book from the same time called: Space, Gravity and The
>Flying Saucers.  Published in 1955.  The author is Leonard Cramp.
>In this book he examines George Adamski's claims and, in particular,
>makes a rigorous scientific examination of the Adamski photographs
>of flying saucers.  It was in this book that I first read about
>the idea of the ships generating their own gravity from the
>center of the craft so that the occupants don't suffer the affects
>of rapid course changes.
>--
What was Leonard Cramp's opinion of George Adamski?
How detailed are his explanations on the technical side?
In his point of view, did he agree/disagree that Adamski's technical drawrings might be real?
Also can you provide me with the publisher of the above mentioned book, and where it may be purchased.
Thankyou
Peter T.

I'm just one of Deep Thought's subroutines.
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Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Monday, 11 Jan 1993 16:35:56 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: newsletter
Lines: 7

Due to the $15 fee that the bank is charging me to process foreign cheques,
I am sorry to say that I can not accept any subscriptions to the "Nefilim
Forum" after January 11, 1993 from outside of USA. The only way you still
can subscribe is if you enclose US$ in an envelope, provided you wish to do so.

Regards,
Vladislav
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From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: BIGFOOTF SPACEMAN?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 93 08:48:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 18

Hello Victor!

Tuesday January 05 1993, Victor Volkman writes to All:

 VV> Even worse, you cannot "live" on Jupiter because there is no place to
 VV> "stand".  It is not solid, it is gaseous.  Not to mention gravity and
 VV> radiation are almost 100 times earth normal.

Not at the physical dimension, but in light dimensions!
Earth ist the only one planet in solar system with live on the physical dimension at this time. (I don't know about any other...)

cheers
   Andre

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: i have a question (SO DO I !!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jan 93 09:05:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 45

Hello sorgatz!

Wednesday January 06 1993, sorgatz writes to All:

 >> Dear Folks: I should have stated that the man was one armed (he had one
 >> arm missing) in my last postings. The planet Venus is a very hot place
 >> and not hospitable to humans in the third dimension, but in the 4th
 >> dimension it is quite a nice place. Humans can visit there is their
 >> astral form and the space people can change a human's molecturlar
 >> structure so that we can exist there also. It takes about a two week
 >> conditioning period. John Winston.

 s>  Aw Jeez...Winston...do you make this stuff up as you go or do you have a
 s> script writer run it up for you?? Just how, exactly, do you know this? I
 s> can't imagine a means (enclosures aside) of getting human life to survive
 s> the environment of Venus. 600+ degrees, poisonous atmosphere...c'mon..get
 s> real! "The Space People"...you sound as silly as George Adamski. Where's
 s> your proof? Got *anything* to back this twaddle up?

John's information is correct! The 4th dimension is a light dimension and quite different from the 3rd (physical) dimension. Only the earth has beings in the physical dimension, some other planets in solar system hast beings on 4th and higher light dimensions including the sun (YES!)!

  Put your limitations of your consciousness away and you can understand!
  And you can comunicate with beings from other dimensions, too!
  It's very interesting and a wonderfull experience.
  The live in the universe is love and light and joy...

Belive it or not... the time comes where you can't look away! Soon!

Galactic greetings
   Andre

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| *********       FidoNet-Berlin, the light of the planet        ********* |
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|   -=< ParaNet-Sigma-Alpha >=-, the international UFO-Research-Network    |
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| FidoNet : Andre Eichner, 2:2403/10 + 2:2403/777 + 2:2403/999             |
| InterNet: [e-mail]                                      |
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+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:06:54 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
> I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
> some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
>
>
> 3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
> is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
> claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two).

                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This sounds interesting. I have not heard the claim that Tim Good has seen
'Greys' himself before. Can you provide a reference?

Thanks,

Steve

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Cpl.Flash)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:55:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Organization: Coventry University
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: Why is it that when I hear the words moderator, censorship
>I think of Hitler? I agree the Don would be a good moderator if you
>think you need a moderator.
>John Winston.

    Hey John,
         Seen as you have contacts with ol' Satan himself maybe
         you could get the big S to moderate us. ;-)

--
 --- <sigh> Another year....another .sig
                                                     <[e-mail]>
"..NOW THE ONLY THING I CAN FEEL IS BETWEEN MY KNEES!!!......"
                             Neds Atomic Dustbin, Flexible Head
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Organization: Home Improvement
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:34:46 GMT
Lines: 14

[e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:

>Hey, gimme a break.. If there really was Aliens lurking around, I'm dure
>they'd have better things to do than drawiong funny little sirkles in the
>corn field.

I didn't claim there were aliens lurking around, moron.

The point is, crop circles are real. They are caused by
something natural. Or by something extraordinarly natural.

All I was asking if someone knew about an alleged (scientific) film,
and apparently you don't know anything.

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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Aliens and "Mary's Message to the World"
Date: 12 Jan 1993 14:39:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Where does Annie Kirkwood say she got this information from?
Does she say Mary personally appeared to her, or did she do
research  with others who had visions?

David
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13494 alt.alien.visitors:12510
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Gorski)
Subject: I give up! (was Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, University of Wisconsin
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 14:25:03 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Ancient Nuclear Blasts. Part 2.
>  Here is some more information about evidence of very hot blasts  of energy
>in the past.
...

Speaking of hot blasts (of air, that is, as in that electronic windbag,
John_-_Winston), I've finally had enough.

Can somebody email me directions as to how to put all posts from
J_-_W into my Kill File?  I'm running rn on Ultrix 4.2 or 4.3, for
what that's worth.

Thanks--

--Tom Gorski
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!moxie!anna
From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Organization: Home Improvement
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:51:45 GMT
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:
>Hey, gimme a break.. If there really was Aliens lurking around, I'm dure
>they'd have better things to do than drawiong funny little sirkles in the
>corn field.

And by the way...
It's idiots typically like you that laugh and make fun of what they don't
understand that makes the public afraid to say anything about anything.

Take your stupid mystic pyramid eye signature that's supposed to mean
something significant and great, and go sit on it.

>          /\           | I didn't say this.      | "When there's no
>        /    \         | My supervisor would     |  more room in hell,
>      /        \       | kill me if i did.       |  the dead will
>    /    (<>)    \     |_________________________|  walk the earth."
>  /                \   |Gunnar Horrigmo          |
>/____________________\ |[e-mail]|

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!hsr.no!petro4.hsr.no!trondk_l
From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Einstein unified
Keywords: The title
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:48:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Lines: 14

I'm back with the information I promised of the book about the UNIFIED FIELD
THEORY:

   Title                :  Geometry of Einstein's unified field theory
   Author         :  Vclav Hlavaty
   Release        :  Autumn 1957
   Pages            :  341
   Deweys decimal
   classification system:  530.142



Trond K. Lindanger
- Your friend in NORWAY
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From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:57:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
>Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:25:44 GMT


>Hey, gimme a break.. If there really was Aliens lurking around, I'm dure
>they'd have better things to do than drawiong funny little sirkles in the
>corn field.


If you don't think it's "Aliens" fine! But do you have any better
explanaitions? There are people claiming they have made the circles, but
when they are asked to redraw some of them they can't do it...

Trond K. Lindanger
- Your friend in NORWAY
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13496 alt.alien.visitors:12514
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From: [e-mail] (General Access)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:16:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 72

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Ancient Nuclear Blasts. Part 2.
>  Here is some more information about evidence of very hot blasts  of energy
>in the past.
>   ....One of the oldest cities in the world is thought to be Catal Huyuk in
>southcentral  Turkey. Paradoxically, the city appeared, according to first
>know evidence, to have been fully civilized and then, suddenly, to have died
>out.
>  Archaeologists excavating portions of Catal Huyuk found thick layers of
>burned brick at one of the levels.  The blocks had been fused together by
>such intense heat that its effects penetrated to a depth more than a meter
>below the level of the floors where it carbonized the earth, the skeletal
>remains of the dead, and the burial gifts that had  been interred with them.
>All bacterial decay had been halted by the tremendous heat.
>  When a large ziggurat in Babylonia was excavated, it gave the appearance of
>having been struck by a terrible fire that had split it down to its
>foundation. In other parts of the runs, large sections of brickwork had been
>scorched into a vitrified state. Several masses of brickwork had  been
>rendered into a completely molten state. Even large boulders found in the
>vicinity of the ruins had been vitrified.
>  The royal buildings at a north Syrian site had been burned so completely
>that the very core of the thick walls had bright red crumbling mud-bricks.
>The mud and lime wall plaster had become vitrified and basalt wall slabs
>had, in some areasa, actuallly melted.
>  Between India's Ganges River and Rajmahal Hills are scorched ruins
>containing large masses of stone that  have been fused and hollowed. Certain
>travelers who ventured to the heart of the Indian forests have reported
>ruins of cities in which the walls have become huge slabs of crystal, due to
>some intense heat.
>  While exloring Death Valley in 1850, and adventurer, William Walker, claimed
>to have come upon the ruins of an ancient city. An end of a large building
>within the rubble had had its stones melted and vitrified.
>  Today, of course, the area is a sterile disert; but earlier in this article
>we have already mentioned the evidence which indicates that Death Valley was
>once a tropical paradise, populate by an unknown race of giants.
>  This is me JW talking now. While I was in Death Valley in Jan. 1993 I heard
>a lecture by the Ranger there and he stated that there was once a lake there
>that was about 600 to 700 feet deep, many years ago. Now back to our story.
>...Walker stated that the entire region between the Gila and St. John rivers
>was spotted with ruins. Each of the ancient settlements had been burned out
>and vitrified in part by fire intense enough to have liquefied rock. Paving
>blocks and stone houses were split with huge cracks, as if seared by some
>monstrous sword of fire.
>  The site of Sete Cidades (Seven Cities), Brazil, was first charted in 1928.
>The ruins located near the equator in the Province of Piaui, are, according
>to some researchers, a monstrous chaos as one might imagine Gomorrah to have
>appeared after God's judgment on the ancient city.  The stones are dried
>out, destroyed, melted. Although no formal excavation has yet been conducted
>at the site, there is no geological explanation to answer how the lumps of
>melted rock appeared to dot the surrounding plains.
>  In the holy books are lengends of many ancient peoples with innumerable
>accounts of wars between the Heavens and the Earth. Cosmic revolutions and
>civil wars were said to have rent or split the prehistoric worlds on
>serveral occasions. More than one Sodom and Gomorrah exploded so that"..the
>smoke rose up like that from a mighty furnace." References to the
>destruction of ancient cities by great blasts of neclear-type power and heat
>are found in the scriptures of the Hindu and the Hebrew and in the myths of
>people as diverse as the American Indian and the African.
>  When we were in Peru investigating the massive ruins of such cities as
>Sacsahuaman and Machu Piccu and the fascinating villages that dot Lake
>Titicaca, certain Shamnans told us that they expect the return of the True
>Inkas, the giants of old, to occur in the very near future, quite likely by
>the end of this century. We  can only wonder should such an odyssey of  time
>and space occor whether the giants of super science in our prehistory will
>be favorably impressed with their scattered clony on Earth-Or if we may
>anticipate our being the prize in another war of the worlds?
>The End.
>John Winston.,


what does this guy take?  DMA??
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13497 alt.alien.visitors:12515 sci.skeptic:36875
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Answers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 09:04:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear Friends: Someone asked what you should do if you are contacted
by and E.T. The answer is all the above. Only about 5 per cent of the
aliens are going to have you for dinner. In most cases  a good rule
to follow is to not fool around with anything that has scales (Reps)
and I don't mean republicans. By their fruits shall ye know them is
still a good rule. Be a fruit inspector. If you really want to get
complicated, contact your higher self and bring in the information or
question about whether the E.T. is good or not into your head, let
it go into your solar plexus and see if you get a good feeling. If
it is not safe for you to contact the space people you will feel a
weezy feeling and run to the nearest exit.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13500 alt.alien.visitors:12516 alt.religion.kibology:5695
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Where's Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 09:16:04 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: According to my calculations the Great Kibo should be
returning soon. I hope he posts his paper that says everbody who
sponsors him.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13501 alt.alien.visitors:12517
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters
From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Subject: Re: I give up! (was Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:51:49 GMT
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Gorski) writes:
>
>Can somebody email me directions as to how to put all posts from
>J_-_W into my Kill File?  I'm running rn on Ultrix 4.2 or 4.3, for
>what that's worth.

Ok, here's the scoop.

Get into rn, and get to a.a.v.

Enter <ctrl>k

As the last line in the killfile, add

/John_-_Winston/h:=:j

Exit your editor (and save).

This will scan the header for all references to John_-_Winston, display the
subject lines, and junk the articles.

-Coyt


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13503 alt.alien.visitors:12518 sci.skeptic:36884
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: They Made Us.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 10:58:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 66

Subject: Who Made Us?
  Are you so pretty is pitiful? Are so handsome that you have to beat the
girls off with a stick? If you are then you had better not read the
following information because it might burst your bubble. Here is some
information from a conbined intelligence of some space people, so hang on to
your hats here we go;.....Creating humans involved much more than genetics.
A highly developed symbiotic relationship between a shapely ape and a very
different kind of life that is best described by you word "soul," used in
the religionis sense, was part of that process.
  This "soul" does not have a physical presence on your level of awaremess,
and it is not addicted to time. It is your guarantee of immortality because
it survives the death of you body with memory, personality, and the ability
to perceive intact.  "Humanity" is a part of the growth cycle of a very
complex galactic consciousness.
  Because you survive bodily death and continue to grow, and because that
growth involes forming highly perfected symbiotic relationships, "humanity"
may be seen as a training ground in which intelligent entities are prepared
and made fit for unions so intimate that the components function with a
single consciousness.
  Though you can't take you physical possessions with you when you shed your
bodies, there are things which you can take with you, the most valuable of
which are wisdom, honor, and the capacity to love. These are qualities which
will stand you in good stead in any  relationship, and those of you who fail
to acquire these virtues are destined to repeat performances in human form
until you do acquire them. If there is a hell, it is right here on Earth, it
is of your own making, and you probably wouldn't have it any other way!
 All of this information is being supplied in the hope that the perspective it
offers will lead to the insights and actions necessary to prevent your
premature destruction, at this time, about all we can do is aim you in the
right direction and point out a few things you seem to have missed.
  The reasons you will be in such demand are your hands, your intelligence,
and your adaptability. That movement where by you place your thumb across
the palm of you hand may not seem like much, but that simple movement has
made you by far the most successful life form in the history of your planet.
Your hands and intelligence coupled with you abilty to adapt physically to a
wide rang of temperatures, pressure, and atmospheric compositions will
enable human communities, working in symbiosos with other intelligent
species, to virtualy rule the galaxy.
  Ever since Darwin, your scientists have been looking for the "mission link"
between humans and apes. They haven't found it yet, and they won't, at least
not on this planet. Humanity did not evolve on Earth. Thousands of
generations of your ancestors lived and died in laboratories all over the
galaxy. During the breeding, mothers raised not their own children, but
their descendants thousand of generations removed. Because so many
genertions lived and died in aqueous solutions in which hair was an
impediment, humans gradually lost most of their body hair.
  When we were breeding you, we were not trying to produce a graceful, highly
specialized life form. Just look at your bodies. You are full of loose ends
and trailing pieces that no finished animal would have hanging about. You
got up on your hind legs so quickly that you haven;t had time to pull
yourselves together, and as a result you are subject to a wide variety of
common physical ailments seldom found in other animals. The lenses of your
eyes, your type of teeth, the bones in you necks, the way your stomachs are
now slung, your abdominal walls, the veins in your legs, and the arches in
your feet are so prone to malfunction that they must seem seriously flawed
from a design standpoint. Did you ever see a cat with tonsilitis,
appendicitis, hernia, hemorrhoids, varicose veins, fallen  arches, or
ingrown toenails? What other animals need glasses, dentures, bras, athletic
supporters, cervical collars, back braces, trusses, and protective foot
coverings. The way your arms dangle and swing uselessly when you walk, and
you need for clothing to maintain body heat in most Earthly climates are
further indications of hybridization and lack of evolutionay polish.
End Part 1.
Source of Information: UFO Universe, Winter 1991, page 45.
This is me JW talking now. If these space people are so smart why didn't they
do a better job when they made us?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13504 alt.alien.visitors:12519
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rama.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 11:39:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 38

Subject: Rama.
  In the past I have mentioned that Shirley MacLain's friend who showed her
around in South America was called David and he had a space person friend
who called herself Rama. Here is some more of the conversations with Rama;...
  David: What is your world that you come from called?
  Rama: The Kingdom of the Mount; it's where I've lived for more than 304 of
your terrestrial years. In this solar system, it's called Ganymede, one of
the  moons of Jupiter. It's about the size of your moon. Our terrain is very
 much like the one we're on right now; the atmosphere is about the same -
very thin oxygen, with high, steep mountains covered with ice, as is the
case here. The topography is also very similar..
 "Incredible. I know about the mooms of Jupiter but it seems unlikely that
life exists on one of them."
 We have extremely cold weather compared to your temperatures, but for us,
these temperatures are comfortable.
  What about your  way of life - do you get married? Do you hAve movie
theaters? Is it a paradise?
 We live in the valleys, surrounded by the icy peaked mountains, in small
complexes, what you would call villages. Similar to the ones you see arond
here. Ganymede is very volcanic. Volcanoes are our source of energy, and we
use that powerful enery for our technology. The same way you usaully find
large cities like New York, Paris, London, and Rome clustered near large
bodies of water, our villages and industrial centers are near volcanoes.
They are our source of life.
  We hav no oceans or large rivers on our planet. We get our water from the
melting ice mixed with the volcanic heat; it's very similar to the medicinal
waters you find right here.
 Is the volcanic energy used for heat as well? Yes, the volcanoes contain a
great deal of thermal energy, which we use to maintain healthy temperatures.
  Since we have not rivers or oceans, and extreme temperatures, we have no
animals on our palnet, only meneral, vegetable and human forms of life. In
our world we've adapted to this, we don;t need animals for food.
Besides, eating and absorbing the ananas and anionites of animals puts
mico-organisms into our systems, creating toxins in the body. Tht where you
earth inhabvitants gety you common cold and other illnesses.
Source of Information: Date Wtth The Gods by Charles A. Silva page 163.
End Part 1.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:25:57 GMT
Lines: 86

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>>>
>>>Dear Folks: Why is it that when I hear the words moderator, censorship
>>>I think of Hitler? I agree the Don would be a good moderator if you
>>>think you need a moderator.
>>>John Winston.
>>This will be the one and only time that I respond to your crap.  You must
>>understand that the use of Internet is a priviledge and not a right.
>>When you start posting under the guise that it is your right to post,
>>you are wrong.  If you would like to go out on the streets and preach
>>to the world your 3 line messages, fine, that is your right.  But you
>>must consider your use of Internet a priviledge and behave accordingly.
>>And if those who want a moderated group want one, they may create one.
>>You John Winston are under no obligation to partake in the discussions there
>>and can freely post here(although it is not a right).
>>Ethan Haslett
>>smoke... smoke.. flame off
>
>Foolish human. Adn why should John's postings incite you to such
>anger? Psychologically, many researchers state that: the state
>of emotional attachment can only come about within the
>perceptive mechanism of the recipient [you] if the recipient
>subconciously finds what had incited him to anger to be true and
>yet still unaccepted by that recipient.

Actually, I just skip em, and read the short ones. But as I either use
telnet or login at 9600 baud, it does not waste much time. But for those
users using 1200/2400 baud modems, it may take a fair extra amount of
time to go around, and if they are paying for connect time by the hour...

>I do not say that I agree with all of John's 1-3 liner postings.
>John...they waste bandwidth. We all agree that if you have
>something new and interesting to report we would like to see
>it..otherwise....dont waste the space please.
>
>BUT!!! I fully defend John's First Amendment Right to speak his
>piece as he pleases. The Usenet IS NOT a priviledge. The Usenet
>is a slightly anarchisticly free forum within which all ideas
>can be freely interchanged. And furthermore...I defy anyone here
>to conclusively prove that it is indeed John Winston who posts
>each and everytime....it can't be done. It is John Winston's
>account....but due to the nature of our current computer
>technology, there is no way to prove without doubt that no one
>else had logged into John's account as John Winston.

Well, there -were- all those Gary Stollman clones, and some of them
were defective. It is not impossible that some of them got together
and thought this up. John's posts are quite distinctive. If anyone
thinks that they can impersonate him I would be interested in seeing
it. We could set up an anonymous forwarding mechanism and then vote.
The winner could ge awarded the kIBO award of valor (by earths
official spokesman, no less).

Wonder whatever happened to Gary Stollman? I kinda miss his posts.
They were works of art.

>You sir, are wasting as much if not more time by starting
>flames.

And by responding, you are fanning the flames.

>           If you do not like what anyone posts...use your kill
>file. That is what it is for.

Not everyone has a newsreader, or a connection which supports a
killfile.

>                                But instead you choose to rant and
>rave like a 5 year old child screaming for his candy bar...I now
>will use my kill file on you as you have wasted my time.
>
>Len
>--
>*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
>The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
>use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
>        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92


Rich

[e-mail]


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:08:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:
>>From: [e-mail] (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
>>Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:25:44 GMT
>
>
>>Hey, gimme a break.. If there really was Aliens lurking around, I'm dure
>>they'd have better things to do than drawiong funny little sirkles in the
>>corn field.
>
>
>If you don't think it's "Aliens" fine! But do you have any better
>explanaitions? There are people claiming they have made the circles, but
>when they are asked to redraw some of them they can't do it...
>

Er..yes they can.  I seen an article that sez they can.  Think it was
"Newsweek" or "Scientific American".  Can't remember which.  Probably
"Newsweek".  I don't think "Scientific American" would waste paper on
crop circles.  But they demonstrated their technique, which was to use
the huge board they were dragging around in circles to eliminate their
tracks inside the circle, and just being really careful when they walked
through the rest of the field.  It was pretty neat.

    Jason
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:34:18 GMT
Lines: 24


So I saw Steve's .sig and have wondered for a long time why we think Stollman
is a fruit:

Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.

I guess this is directed to Steve, but I wanted to do it publicly:

How's it going cloning human beings?

I attended a Berkeley symposium put on my Michael Lindeman's 2020 group
and one subject that got brought up was that one of the biggest
US government projects at Los Alimos and Larence Labs is the mapping of the
human genome. The implications of this are enormous. Clone solders, make
robots that do anythink you like (slaves) or create look-alikes for
security so nobody knows which Prez is the real thing...

combine that idea with the report from Bob Lazar that the greys refer to
humans as containers, and the fact that the government is inot some
really esoteric stuff like installing the human spirit into clones,
and you have some strong drink to think about.

Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: BIGFOOTF SPACEMAN?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:36:25 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andre Eichner) writes:
>Hello Victor!
>
>Tuesday January 05 1993, Victor Volkman writes to All:
>
> VV> Even worse, you cannot "live" on Jupiter because there is no place to
> VV> "stand".  It is not solid, it is gaseous.  Not to mention gravity and
> VV> radiation are almost 100 times earth normal.
>
>Not at the physical dimension, but in light dimensions!
>Earth ist the only one planet in solar system with live on the physical dimension at this time. (I don't know about any other...)
>
>cheers
>   Andre

Right on Andre.
Greeting to my german brother...

Can you say:

LIGHT WITHOUT HEAT?

In knew that you could.

Jeff-



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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: John Winston is not a real person?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:33:09 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
>says:
>>Cost is about $20/month, currently. They charge a lot for storage
>>however, which means that if you get a lot of mail, the cost can go
>>way up. They also have a large PD/Shareware library and a graphics
>Hmm.  Very interesting.  So if John Winston gets a large amount of mail,
>his monthly fees would skyrocket?  Assuming he is not wealthy in the extreme
>this might be a way for someone to annoy him!  Or quiet him.  Comments?

I once mailed myself about a megabyte of split uuencoded GIF (just one)
and was shocked to pay a $20 storage fee next month.

I think that this is a bit unethical. It will also waste far more net
bandwith than John's postings. I do not think that this is a great
idea.

>>library which includes lots of GIFS etc...
>>
>>Rich
>>
>>[e-mail]
>>
>Ethan Haslett
>[e-mail]


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Chris Barrus)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Nntp-Posting-Host: lynx.ps.uci.edu
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Sat,  9 Jan 93 02:02:49 PST
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California, Irvine
Lines: 79
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:47:54 GMT


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   Subject: Mitchell Caverns and Dorn Underground Cavern.
      If a person is looking for the Underground City near Cadiz and Danby,
   Calif. it might be good to know a little more about that general area.
   Before hearing about the city I had heard about a person by the name of Mr.
   Dorn who had found a cave opening going down into a mountain that has a name
    that sounds like Mount Keoweef. It's over close to Cima, Calif between
   Barstow and Needles, Calif.
     Dorn was doing some prospecting when he went into the moutain and found a
   large inner area with a large open area that had a high ceiling. There was a
   small stream running through the cavern and he panned out some gold, brought
   it out and sold it. He then organized a group to develope the area but
   something happened and someone blew up the entrance a little ways down in
   the cave entrance. A large company was said to have bought the rights to the
   cavern and sealed it off. They also put some guards around the area to keep
   people out for a few years, but it has never been opened up. You should also
===================================
This story is nothing new.  Check out any good book on the local history on
the Mojave Desert and look for references to Crystal Cave.  It's mentioned
in most of the "lost mine" stories.  Also as a point of information, this
site is not between Barstow and Needles, but between Barstow and Searchlight,
NV.  After finding the "river of gold" Dorn (I can't verify the name right
now) blew up the entrance himself so others couldn't find it.  He couldn't
raise the money for further development and thus end of story.  Another
company owns the site currently and is not disclosing any more information.
File it somewhere with the Oak Island stuff.
===================================

   realize that more UFO are seen in this area than any other place I have even
   been in.

===================================
No more than any other area.  I've been camping and hiking around in the
Mojave for 11 years and haven't seen anything that I would consider to be
"unidentified."  Bear in mind also that the 29 Palms Marine Station, Ft. Irwin,
China Lake Naval Station, and Nellis AFB are all in the area and conduct
weapons testing.
===================================

     A US government ownes a cavern that takes people into it  and is called
   Mitchell Caverns and it is in that general area.

===================================
This is incorrect.  Mitchell Caverns is a state park and thus under the
jurisdiction of the State of California.  The East Mojave Scenic Area
is under Federal control.  BLM takes care of everything else.  Also, Mitchell
Caverns is about 35 air miles (50 by road) away from the Crystal Caverns
site.  I've been inside Mitchell Caverns and haven't seen anything too out
of the ordinary.
==================================

     My friend Marge Bell used to live just south of the filling station at
   Cadiz. Once she was going to bury her dead pet dog and proceeded to dig a
   hole just a few feet south of her house. She dug down a foot or two and then
   hit a hole.  She then took a 25 feet garden hose and put a weight on the end
   of the hose and let it down into the hole. She couldn't reach the bottom so
   she put on another 25 feet piece of hose and still couldn't reach bottom. It
   scared her so much that she covered up the hose and didn't tell any one else
   about it. She thought the whole area might fall in and take her with it.
     I have a feeling that the hole is part of an underground cavern that would
   go for miles and maybe connect to the underground city, Mitchell Caverns and
   Dorn's Cavern.
     Marge Bell has now moved away to 29 Palms, Calif. Her husband Mr. Bell died,
   her next husband died but she said that her husbands always died with a
   smile on their face.
   John Winston.
===============================

Hey, that's great......

Chris
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Barrus - P.O. Box 5115 - Irvine - CA - 92716 - [e-mail]

           Sacred cows make the best hamburger - Abbie Hoffman
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Diane Atkinson)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <dementia.726878517@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:41:57 GMT
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[e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:


>2) Crop circles. All are hoaxes. Speaking as a hoaxer myself, I've found that
>the "experts" cannot tell a natural circle from a manmade one, so any research
>would be pointless.

"All are hoaxes" is a rather sweeping statement.  I can honestly say there
are those that *are* hoaxes, but there are those where it is not so easily
dismissed.  I took a class here at UNO, and UFOs as well as crop circles
were discussed.
The information that was presented was scientific research of grasses and
grains affected by the circles.  Hoaxes were obvious, as crops were
damaged and broken--no further growth occurred.
However, oddities were present in some circles, namely, grasses were not
broken and kept growing long after the formation of the circle.  These grasses
could even later be harvested.  Also noted were oddities occurring on growth
nodes of the grains that could be replicated--but only if stuck in a microwave
and nuked.  There is no known technology that can cause sudden heat induced
changes in plant growth nodes while at the same time causing a bending but
not breaking of the same grasses.
So it is unknown exactly what causes these sorts of crop circles.  I just
don't think all are people circling around with a board.  That just couldn't
cause the above listed oddities.  Some have said that the heat from a UFO, as
well as its strange sort of effects on gravity could cause such oddities.
A theory, but not proven.


--
*"Everything under the sun              LA!*                    Diane Atkinson*
*is in tune and the sun is              /  *         [e-mail]*
*eclipsed by the moon."           ___^o^___*      "Jafar, Jafar, he's our man.*
*            --Pink Floyd                  *       If he can't do it, GREAT!!"*
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:16:02 GMT
Lines: 12


  Foolish person includes 500 line reprint just to add his one liner...

>>John Winston.,
>
>
> what does this guy take?  DMA??

  That's MDA. And, no, he doesn't. He just plagiarizes people who do...
  Try cutting the followup down to a few lines next time...

-Max
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From: [e-mail] (robert j kolker)
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:19:54 GMT
Lines: 7

It was those agressors from Atlantis that did it.

Conan the Librarian

--
"If you can't love the Constitution, then at least hate the Government"

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From: Anne Douglass <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: James Cook University
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>Path:
marlin.jcu.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.oz.au!spool.mu.edu!agate!usen
>et.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!smg6
>From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
>Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:29:06 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>Lines: 5
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu
>
>
>If anyone cares, I knew several Australian expatriots in Japan, and
>each mentioned at one time or another that the word was spelled
>"Aussie" but pronounced "Ozzie."
>--

It's true!  I *AM* one!

Anne
Townsville
Queensland
AUSTRALIA

13 Jan 1993  -  HAPPY NEW YEAR
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From: Anne Douglass <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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>Path:
marlin.jcu.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.oz.au!spool.mu.edu!agate!usen
>et.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!smg6
>From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
>Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:29:06 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>Lines: 5
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu
>
>
>If anyone cares, I knew several Australian expatriots in Japan, and
>each mentioned at one time or another that the word was spelled
>"Aussie" but pronounced "Ozzie."
>--

It's true!  I *AM* one!

Anne
Townsville
Queensland
AUSTRALIA

13 Jan 1993  -  HAPPY NEW YEAR
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From: Anne Douglass <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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>Path:
marlin.jcu.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.oz.au!spool.mu.edu!agate!usen
>et.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!smg6
>From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
>Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:29:06 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>Lines: 5
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu
>
>
>If anyone cares, I knew several Australian expatriots in Japan, and
>each mentioned at one time or another that the word was spelled
>"Aussie" but pronounced "Ozzie."
>--

Yes, it's absolutely true!    I *am* one!


Anne
Townsville
Queensland
AUSTRALIA


13 Jan 1993  -  HAPPY NEW YEAR
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From: Anne Douglass <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Oops!  Seems to have been posted twice!
Told me it didn't work the first time.
Never mind, Mac - I forgive you.
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: They Made Us.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:48:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1993Jan12.234832.4059
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Organization: BeHereNow
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Gosh John,

You have outdone yourself with this post...

Thanks so much for posting it, very interesting. I feel sorry for those
with you in thier kill files.

Jeff-
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:40:38 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Barrus) writes:
>

>No more than any other area.  I've been camping and hiking around in the
>Mojave for 11 years and haven't seen anything that I would consider to be
>"unidentified."  Bear in mind also that the 29 Palms Marine Station, Ft. Irwin,
>China Lake Naval Station, and Nellis AFB are all in the area and conduct
>weapons testing.


Bear in mind that China Lake and Nellis are full of underground bases that
local construction workers are reporting sightings of aliens working with
scientists at the lower levels.

Source: 2020 Group, Michael Lindemann - Several eyewitness reports were
broadcast (the individuals themselves were taped) on KPFA Berkeley radio
station.

jeff-



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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:56:38 GMT
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Title says it all really.
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From: [e-mail] ([e-mail])
Subject: Refferals...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:19:00 GMT
Lines: 11

I am in need of contact from some people that are having ongoing abductions
and are willing to allow me to install some equipment that will eventually
lead to exposure of the cause and development of technologies to stop the
abductions. Interested parties e-mail or phone to below listed address/#.

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gilbert)
Subject: Re: I give up! (was Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:24:59 GMT
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Tom Gorski ([e-mail]) wrote:

: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
: >Subject: Ancient Nuclear Blasts. Part 2.

: >  Here is some more information about evidence of very hot blasts  of energy
: >in the past.
: ...
:
: Speaking of hot blasts (of air, that is, as in that electronic windbag,
: John_-_Winston), I've finally had enough.
:
: Can somebody email me directions as to how to put all posts from
: J_-_W into my Kill File?  I'm running rn on Ultrix 4.2 or 4.3, for
: what that's worth.

Can't help you there, but... how about we conduct a letter writing
campaign to '[e-mail]', Portals' Customer Service E-Mail
address, complaining that one of their customers is posting off-topic
articles that are a complete waste of bandwidth to the world at large?
Such tactics have recently been successful in other groups for reining
in similar nuisance posters.  Even a cursory glance through the back-
articles in this group would easily support such a contention.
--
Steve Gilbert                    ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: NO! I AM NOT A NAZI!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:56:52 GMT
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I am told that some malicious idiot is posting malicious slander on UFO
Fido-Net that I am a Nazi slitting Jews throats.

I am Jewish and very Anti-Nazi.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Aliens and "Mary's Message to the World"
Date: 13 Jan 1993 01:31:06 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> says:
>
>This book, "Mary's Message to the World" is by Annie Kirkwood and she talks
>about the role the aliens will play in the upcoming earth changes.  She also
>states how our government has been covering up the information regarding the
>aliens and also the changes that are occuring in our solar system, even now.

Could you summarise and post on the above?
Might be interesting.
Thankyou.
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SOCCER
Date: 13 Jan 1993 01:33:22 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Baochun Ge) says:
>
>
>Hellow Guys:
>
>        I know Chinese soccer team beat Poland Olympic and
>Moscow teams 5:1 and 3:1 seperately in Singapore. But who
>won the champain after all, China or South Korea ? Information
>much appreciated.

How did this get in here?
Hmm...maybe someones finger slipped.
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What do I do when...
Date: 13 Jan 1993 01:36:51 GMT
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David T.) says:
>
>Just out of curiosity what should I or anyone else do if visited by an ET? Run,
>pull out the video camera, or submit to their requests???

Pull out your video camera, run {fast} , point camera backwards.

Peter T.
Xref: icaen alt.flame:49199 alt.religion.scientology:3956 alt.alien.visitors:12542 talk.bizarre:88430
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Brown)
Subject: Re: HAY U GUYS R ALL LUZERZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Waterloo
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:42:58 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ratboy) writes:
>>M0NTEY PYTH0N SUX CUZ IT D0ESNT MAKE ANY SENSE ????/ U D00DZ SHULD GET A LIFE !!!!!!!1
>
>Is it that time of the month again?
>Once a month we get one of these...*sigh*
>Talk about getting a life...
>Plus, I don't listen to anyone who types in all caps and has no "O" key...
>
>>BTW BY THE WAY ADAM WEST HAS A NEW TV SERIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Joy. Tell it to alt.fan.adam.west or summat...
>I'm sure *they* would care.
>
>Ratboy aka WH0 THE HELL *IS* THIS L00ZER, ANYWAY?
>
Look, guys, I just caught me a frosh!  Mail the man a Jargon file!

--
Dave Brown
[e-mail]
Phone: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 03:48:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 11


Heeey!  Is this any relation to Mike Dorn, of Infocom and therefore
"Zork" fame?  Have we discovered the Great Underground Empire at last?
How excessive can you get, Dimwit Flathead????  Break out the zorkmids,
the brass lanterns and the elvish swords of great antiquity!

--
****************************************************************************
"Generally, things have gone about as far as they can possibly go when
 things have got about as bad as they can reasonably get."--Tom Stoppard
   Jason D. Corley  (aka [e-mail]) Physics, Lunacy, etc.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13515 alt.alien.visitors:12544 alt.religion.kibology:5704
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Where's Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:21:40 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: According to my calculations the Great Kibo should be
>returning soon. I hope he posts his paper that says everbody who
>sponsors him.
>John Winston.

I'm back_-_from my vacation at the_-_moment, but unfortunately I'm
really really busy, and don't_-_have time to reply to all the backlog of
mail that I've been_-_accumulating, etc.;  I'm even limiting myself to
just reading a couple of_-_these darn groups.

(Got a one-week deadline on a certain project, see...)

Oh, yes, I've got the tape;  thanks, John_-_ (and thanks, Betty.)
Haven't had time to watch it at the moment, but ASAP I'll dupe it and
pass it on to the next lucky winner.  You won't sue if I copy it, will
you?
                    _-_K.

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:33:34 GMT
Lines: 42

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>>
>>Foolish human. Adn why should John's postings incite you to such
>>anger? Psychologically, many researchers state that: the state
>>of emotional attachment can only come about within the
>>perceptive mechanism of the recipient [you] if the recipient
>>subconciously finds what had incited him to anger to be true and
>>yet still unaccepted by that recipient.
>
>Actually, I just skip em, and read the short ones. But as I either use
>telnet or login at 9600 baud, it does not waste much time. But for those
>users using 1200/2400 baud modems, it may take a fair extra amount of
>time to go around, and if they are paying for connect time by the hour...

I ordered a V.32 modem this week just so I'll be able to post faster
than you can read it.  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

>>I do not say that I agree with all of John's 1-3 liner postings.
>>John...they waste bandwidth. We all agree that if you have

Bandwidth is *meant* to be used up.  That's what it's for.  I sense this
person is one of those who tells people not to sit on the couch because
it will wear out the plastic slipcovers.

>and thought this up. John's posts are quite distinctive. If anyone
>thinks that they can impersonate him I would be interested in seeing
>it. We could set up an anonymous forwarding mechanism and then vote.
>The winner could ge awarded the kIBO award of valor (by earths
>official spokesman, no less).

John_-_Winston is an actual person.  I just took a quick look at the first few
minutes of the tape of one of his shows, and he's clearly labelled.  He
looks sort of like a young Ed Koch, only with facial expressions.  He is
not an AI program as I am, though of course there is a chance that he
may be a vinyl puppet opperated by some evil alien version of Jim
Henson.  When I have time to watch the tape I'll let you folks know if I
can see any strings on him.  I expect he's human, though.

                        -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Present Lives.
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:25:54 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: This thing about reincarnation really gets complicated.
>I know a lady by the name of Sister Thedra who is aware of another
>person who she also is who is a middle aged housewife and another
>lady who she also is who comes from Venus and attends UFO study
>meetings. In that body she is young and very pretty. To sum it up she
>is aware of three bodies that she is in.
>John Winston.


Then you must be speaking with the DEAD. Sister Thedra passed on last
year. If you do not believe this, then you are cordially invited to
write to:

ASSK, Inc
2675 W. Hwy 89A, Suite 454
Sedona, Arizona
86336

[phone]

You are way behind the times John..why do I get the "vibes" that you are
some lonely old man sitting at the 'puter with nothing to do? :}

BTW..call up and ask Ted what he thinks about George Green's "Hatonn"

Hehe..be sure and hold the phone away from your ear. Anyone who does
research KNOWS that Richard Miller (aka Phoenix Project - Jack Mathias)
was the true channel for Hatonn.

"Mom, the fire's going..bring some more Cooper material"

Don



--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:14:54 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Ancient Nuclear Test.
>   In my travels looking for the Underground City near Danby, Calif.
>I was once on the north side of the Clipper Montains and found a lot
>of stones that looked like melted glass. It looked to me like there
>had been a war thousands of years ago and the combatants used
>some weapons that melted the stone and ground to turn it into glass.
>     I then started studing the subject and ran across the following


>End Part 1.
>Source of Material: UFO Universe Magazine. Fall 1992. Page 48, written
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>by Brad Steiger and Sherry Hansen Steiger.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Credibility factor: Less than Zero. UFO Universe is what you line a drawer
with. Brad Steiger credible? NOT!

Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?

"You visit the zoo but you don't contact the lizards" - J. Vallee

Don



--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Linda Napolitano inReport - 1/2
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:05:52 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 655


Note: This was sent to me courtesy of George Hansen and arrived in
the mail on disk. I've talked at length with George Hansen and Joe
Stefula. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact them
at the address and phone number provided in the file.

Posted in two parts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 M E M O



To:   Those Interested in the UFO Problem


From: Joseph J. Stefula                     [phone]
      7 Michigan Terrace
      Browns Mills, NJ  08015

      Richard D. Butler                     [phone]
      P.O. Box 65
      Mays Landing, NJ  08330

      George P. Hansen                      [phone]
      Princeton Arms North 1, Apt. 59
      Cranbury, NJ  08512


Date: 08 January 1993


Re:   Budd Hopkins' case of the abduction of Linda Napolitano


Enclosed is our report on the much acclaimed case of the UFO abduction of
Linda Napolitano.  We invite your comments.


Hopkins' claims have generated enormous publicity and have been mentioned in
the New York Times, Omni, the Wall Street Journal, and Paris Match, among
others.  As such, this case is likely to have a substantial impact on the
field of ufology.


Leadership in both the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) and the J. Allen Hynek
Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) aggressively opposed our investigation, and
both previously refused to publish our criticisms.  This raises grave
questions about the scientific and journalistic integrity of MUFON and
CUFOS.


Those organizations have many members, and we are unable to provide more
than a few copies of this paper to others.  We ask you to help us with the
distribution.  Please feel free to make copies of this article, post it on
electronic bulletin boards, and print it in periodicals.


A Critique of Budd Hopkins' Case of the UFO Abduction

of

Linda Napolitano


by Joseph J. Stefula, Richard D. Butler, and George P. Hansen

-----------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT:  Budd Hopkins has made a number of public presentations of a
purported UFO abduction case with multiple witnesses.  The primary abductee is
Linda Napolitano, who lives in an apartment building on the lower east side of
Manhattan (New York City).  She claims to have been abducted by
extraterrestrial aliens from her 12th floor apartment in November 1989.  It is
claimed that three witnesses in a car two blocks away observed Linda and alien
beings float out of a window and ascend into a craft.  One alleged witness was
United Nations Secretary General Javier Perez de Cuellar.  It is also claimed
that a woman on the Brooklyn Bridge observed the abduction.  Linda has reported
nose bleeds, and one X-ray displays an implant in her nose.

To date, Hopkins has provided no full, detailed written report, but he did
publish a couple five page articles in the September and December 1992 issues
of the Mufon UFO Journal and made a presentation at the 1992 MUFON symposium.
We have made use of that information as well as records from other
presentations, and we have interviewed the abductee.  A number of serious
questions arose from our examination.  The case has many exotic aspects, and we
have identified a science fiction novel that may have served as the basis for
elements of the story.

Several prominent leaders in ufology have become involved, and their behavior
and statements have been quite curious.  Some have aggressively attempted to
suppress evidence of a purported attempted murder.  The implications for the
understanding of ufology are discussed.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Budd Hopkins is the person most responsible for drawing attention to the
problem of the extraterrestrial (ET) abduction experience.  His efforts have
been instrumental in stimulating both media attention and scientific
research devoted to the problem.  He has written two popular books (Missing
Time, 1981, and Intruders, 1987), established the Intruders Foundation, and
has made innumerable appearances at conferences and in the media.

Although Hopkins is neither a trained therapist, an academic, nor a
scientist, he has involved such people in his work.  John E. Mack, M.D., a
Pulitzer Prize winner and former head of the psychiatry department at
Harvard Medical School, has praised Hopkins' work and acknowledged his
indebtedness to him (Mack, 1992a, 1992b).  Hopkins has collaborated with
university professors in co-authoring an article in the book Unusual
Personal Experiences (1992), which was sent to 100,000 mental health
professionals.  He has testified as an expert witness at a hearing regarding
the medical competence of a physician who claims to have been abducted
(McKenna, 1992).  Because of such strong endorsements and impressive
affiliations, and because of his untiring work on behalf of abductees,
Hopkins has become the single most visible figure in the UFO abduction
field.  His contributions, positive or negative, will be quickly noticed by
those inside and outside ufology.

Last year, Hopkins made a number of public presentations about a spectacular
UFO abduction case occurring in November 1989 and having multiple witnesses.
The primary abductee was Linda Napolitano, a woman living on the 12th floor
of a high-rise apartment building in lower Manhattan (New York City)
[Hopkins has previously used the pseudonym "Linda Cortile" in this case].
It is claimed that three witnesses in a car two blocks away observed Linda
and three ET aliens emerge from a window and ascend into a craft.  Further
it is claimed that a woman who was driving across the Brooklyn Bridge also
saw the event.

The case has generated enormous interest and drawn international attention.
It has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal (Jefferson, 1992), Omni
(Baskin, 1992), Paris Match (De Brosses, 1992), the New York Times (Sontag,
1992), and Hopkins and Napolitano have appeared on the television show
Inside Edition.  The Mufon UFO Journal labeled it "The Abduction Case of the
Century" (Stacy, 1992, p. 9).  Even the technical magazine ADVANCE for
Radiologic Science Professionals carried a discussion of Linda's nasal
implant (Hatfield, 1992).  We should expect continuing coverage of the
affair not only in the UFO press but also in the major media.

In a short article previewing his 1992 MUFON symposium presentation, he
wrote: "I will be presenting what I believe to be the most important case
for establishing the objective reality of UFO abductions that I have yet
encountered" (Hopkins, 1992, p. 20).  During his lecture at the symposium he
stated: "This is probably the most important case I've ever run into in my
life" (tape recorded, July 1992).  In his abstract for the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology Abduction Study Conference held in June 1992 he
wrote: "The importance of this case is virtually immeasurable, as it
powerfully supports both the objective reality of UFO abductions and the
accuracy of regressive hypnosis as employed with this abductee."  Because of
Hopkins' renown, and because of his evaluation, this case warrants our
careful scrutiny.


THE AUTHORS' INVOLVEMENT


The first two authors had learned of the case before Hopkins had spoken
publicly of it, and they decided to monitor its progress.  They regularly
briefed the third author as their investigation progressed.  As the affair
became publicized, all three became concerned about the long term effect it
might have on abduction research.

For several years Richard Butler attended Hopkins' informal meetings
organized for abductees and abduction researchers.  Butler became familiar
with the case during those meetings, and he invited Stefula to a gathering
in early October 1991.  At the meeting, Hopkins outlined the case, and
afterward, Stefula had a chance to chat with Linda about her experiences.
Butler and Stefula gave Linda their telephone numbers.  She was advised that
if she needed any assistance she could contact them.  Stefula told her that
he had numerous contacts in federal and state law enforcement agencies that
could be of aid to her.  The same information was provided to Hopkins.

On January 28, 1992, Linda requested a meeting with Richard Butler, and on
February 1, 1992, Linda, Stefula and Butler met in New York City, and Linda
provided additional details about her experiences (described below).  During
that meeting, she asked them not to inform Hopkins of their discussions.  At
the 1992 MUFON convention in Albuquerque, New Mexico in July, both Hopkins
and Linda appeared on the podium and presented the case.  Stefula attended
the convention and heard the talk, and disturbing questions arose.  Some of
the statements directly contradicted what Linda had earlier told Stefula and
Butler.  We contacted Hopkins in an attempt to resolve these matters, but he
declined to meet with us, saying that he didn't want to discuss the case
until his book manuscript was submitted.  Despite his initial reluctance,
eventually a meeting was arranged on October 3, 1992 at Hopkins' home, and a
few more details then emerged.


SUMMARY OF CASE


In order to compile this summary of alleged events, we have relied upon
Hopkins' and Linda's talks from the podium of the 1992 MUFON symposium, on
our interviews with Linda, on Hopkins' talk at the Portsmouth, New Hampshire
UFO conference, September 13, 1992, and Hopkins' two five-page articles in
the September and December issues of the Mufon UFO Journal.

In April 1989 Hopkins received a letter from Linda Napolitano, a resident of
New York City.  Linda wrote that she had begun reading his book Intruders
and had remembered that 13 years earlier she had detected a bump next to her
nose.  It was examined by a physician who insisted that she had undergone
nasal surgery.  Linda claimed that she never had such surgery, and she even
checked with her mother, who confirmed that impression.

Hopkins took an interest in the case because there was a potential for
medical evidence and because Linda lived relatively close to Hopkins, which
facilitated their meeting.  Linda visited Hopkins and discussed her past
experiences with him.  She recalled some pertinent earlier events in her
life but believed that she was no longer directly involved with any
abduction phenomena.  Linda then began attending meetings of Hopkins'
support group for abductees.

On November 30, 1989, Linda called Hopkins and reported that she had been
abducted during the early morning hours of that day, and she provided some
details.  A few days later, she underwent regressive hypnosis, and Linda
remembered floating out of her apartment window, 12 stories above the
ground. She recalled ascending in a bluish-white beam of light into a craft
which was hovering over the building.


Richard and Dan

Over a year later (February 1991), Hopkins received a letter signed with the
first names, Richard and Dan.  (We have no hard evidence that "Richard" and
"Dan" actually exist.  In order to avoid overburdening the reader, we will
typically omit the word "alleged" when mentioning them.)  The letter claimed
that the two were police officers who were under cover in a car beneath the
elevated FDR Drive between 3:00 and 3:30 a.m. in late November 1989.  Above
a high-rise apartment building, they observed a large, bright reddish-orange
object with green lights around its side.  They wrote that they saw a woman
and several strange figures float out a window and up into the object.
Richard and Dan said that they had come across Hopkins' name and decided to
write to him. They went on to say that they were extremely concerned about
her well being, wanted to locate the woman, talk to her, and be assured that
she was alive and safe.  The two also mentioned that they could identify the
building and window from which she emerged.

After receiving the letter, Hopkins promptly called Linda and told her that
she might expect a visit from two policemen.  A few days later, Linda
telephoned Hopkins to tell him that she had been visited by Richard and Dan.
When they had knocked on her door, introducing themselves as police
officers, she was not too surprized because she reports that police
frequently canvass her apartment complex looking for witnesses to crimes.
Even with Hopkins' prior call, she did not expect Richard and Dan to
actually appear.  After they arrived and entered her home, there was an
emotional greeting, and they expressed relief that she was alive.  However,
Richard and Dan were disinclined to meet with or talk to Hopkins, despite
the fact that they had written him earlier and despite Linda's entreaties to
do so.  Richard asked Linda if it was acceptable for them to write out an
account of their experience and then read it into a tape recorder.  She
agreed, and a couple weeks later Hopkins received a tape recording from
Richard describing their experience.

Some time thereafter, Hopkins received a letter from Dan giving a bit more
information.  The letter reported that Richard had taken a leave of absence
because the close encounter had been so emotionally traumatic.  Dan also
mentioned that Richard secretly watched Linda.  (This information is from
Hopkins' oral presentation at the 1992 MUFON symposium in Albuquerque.  At
the Portsmouth, New Hampshire conference, Hopkins said that he had received
a letter from Richard saying that Dan was forced to take of leave of
absence.  It is not clear if Hopkins misspoke at some point, or whether both
individuals took leaves of absence.)

Hopkins received another letter from Dan which said that he and Richard were
not really police officers but actually security officers who had been
driving a very important person (VIP) to a helicopter pad in lower Manhattan
when the sighting occurred.  The letter claimed that their car stalled, and
Richard had pushed it, parking it beneath the FDR Drive.  According to Dan,
the VIP had also witnessed the abduction event and had become hysterical.

The Kidnappings

Linda claimed that in April of 1991 she encountered Richard on the street
near her apartment.  She was asked to get into a car that Dan was driving,
but she refused.  Richard picked her up and, with some struggle, forced her
into the vehicle.  Linda reported that she was driven around for 3 1/2
hours, interrogated about the aliens, and asked whether she worked for the
government. She also said that she was forced to remove her shoes so they
could examine her feet to determine whether she was an ET alien (they later
claimed that aliens lack toes).  Linda did remember another car being
involved with the kidnapping, and under hypnotic regression she recalled the
license plate number of that car, as well as part of the number of the car
in which she rode. Hopkins reports that the numbers have been traced to
particular "agencies" (he gave no further details).

At the MUFON symposium, Linda was asked if she had reported the kidnapping
to the police.  She said that she had not and went on to say that the
kidnapping was legal because it had to do with national security.

In conversations with Butler in early 1992, Linda had expressed concerns
about her personal safety.  A meeting was arranged with Stefula because of
his background in law enforcement.  During the afternoon and early evening
of February 1, the three met in New York City, and Linda described further
details of the kidnappings.

She reported that on the morning of October 15, 1991, Dan accosted her on
the street and pulled her into a red Jaguar sports car.  Linda happened to
be carrying a tape recorder and was able to surreptitiously record a few
minutes of Dan's questioning, but he soon discovered and confiscated it.
Dan drove to a beach house on the shore of Long Island.  There he demanded
that Linda remove her clothes and put on a white nightgown, similar to the
one she wore the night of the abduction.  He said he wanted to have sex with
her.  She refused but then agreed to put on the nightgown over her clothes.
Once she did, Dan dropped to his knees and started to talk incoherently
about her being the "Lady of the Sands."  She fled the beach house, but Dan
caught her on the beach and bent her arm behind her.  He placed two fingers
on the back of her neck, leading Linda to believe that it was a gun.  He
then forced her into the water and pushed her head under twice.  He
continued to rave incoherently, and as her head was being pushed under for
the third time, she believed that she would not come up again.  Then, a
"force" hit Dan and knocked him back onto the beach. She started to run but
heard a sound like a gun being cocked.  She looked back and saw Dan taking a
picture of her (Linda mentioned that pictures from the beach were eventually
sent to Hopkins).  She continued running, but Richard appeared beside her,
seemingly out of nowhere.  He stopped her and convinced her to return to the
beach house and told her that he would control Dan by giving him a Mickey
Finn.  She agreed.  Once inside, Richard put Dan in the shower to wash off
the mud and sand from the beach.  This gave Linda a chance to search the
premises; she recovered her casette tape and discovered stationery bearing a
Central Intelligence Agency letterhead.

In a brief conversation on October 3, 1992, Hopkins told Hansen that Linda
came to him shortly after she arrived back in Manhattan after the
kidnapping. She was disheveled, had sand in her hair, and was traumatized by
the experience.


Further Contacts with Richard and Dan

During the February 1 meeting with Butler and Stefula, Linda reported that
she had met Richard outside a Manhattan bank on November 21, 1991.  He told
her of Dan's deteriorating mental condition.  During the Christmas season,
Linda received a card and a three page letter from Dan (dated 12/14/91).
The letter bore a United Nations stamp and postmark (the UN building in New
York has a post office which anyone can use).  Dan wrote that he was in a
mental institution and was kept sedated.  He expressed a strong romantic
interest in Linda.  Some of his remarks suggested that he wanted to kidnap
her, take her out of the country, and marry her; Linda seemed alarmed by
this (she gave a copy of the letter to Stefula and Butler).

Linda also asserted that on December 15 and December 16, 1991, one of the
men had tried to make contact with her near the shopping area of the South
Street Seaport.  He was driving a large black sedan with Saudi Arabian
United Nations license plates.  During the first incident, to avoid him,
Linda reported that she went into a shop.  The second day a similar thing
happened, and she stood next to some businessmen until he left the area.


The Third Man

At the February 1 meeting, Linda mentioned that Hopkins had received a
letter from "the third man" (the VIP), and she was able to repeat entire
sentences from this letter, seemingly verbatim.  It discussed ecological
danger to the planet, and Linda indicated that aliens were involved in
ending the Cold War.  The letter ended with a warning to Hopkins to stop
searching for "the third man" because it could potentially do harm to world
peace.

Linda also related a few more details of her November 1989 abduction.  She
said that the men in the car had felt a strong vibration at the time of the
sighting.  Linda also claimed that in subsequent hypnotic regressions she
recalled being on a beach with Dan, Richard, and the third man, and she
thought somehow she was being used by the aliens to control the men.  She
communicated with the men telepathically and said that she felt that she had
known Richard prior to the November 1989 abduction, and she suggested that
they possibly had been abducted together previously.  We also learned that
the third man was actually Javier Perez de Cuellar, at that time Secretary
General of the United Nations.  Linda claimed that the various vehicles used
in her kidnappings had been traced to several countries' missions at the UN.

At the Portsmouth, New Hampshire conference, Hopkins spoke of the third man
saying: "I am trying to do what I can to shame this person to come forward."


Witness on the Brooklyn Bridge

In the summer of 1991, a year and a half after the UFO abduction, Hopkins
received a letter from a woman who is a retired telephone operator from
Putnam County, New York (Hopkins has given this woman the pseudonym of Janet
Kimble). Hopkins did not bother to open the letter, and in November 1991, he
received another one from her marked on the outside "CONFIDENTIAL, RE:
BROOKLYN BRIDGE." The odd outside marking and the fact that she had written
two letters, seem to have raised no suspicions in Hopkins' mind.  The woman,
a widow of about sixty, claimed to have been driving on the Brooklyn Bridge
at 3:16 a.m., November 30, 1989.  She reported that her car stopped and the
lights went out.  She too saw a large, brightly lit object over a building;
in fact, the light was so bright that she was forced to shield her eyes,
though she was over a quarter mile away.  Nevertheless, she claimed to have
observed four figures in fetal positions emerge from a window.  The figures
simultaneously uncurled and then moved up into the craft.  Ms. Kimble was
quite frightened by the event, and people in cars behind her were "running
all around their cars with theirs (sic) hands on their heads, screaming from
horror and disbelief" (quoted in Hopkins, 1992d, p. 7).  She wrote: "I have
never traveled back to New York City after what I saw and I never will
again, for any reason" (Hopkins, 1992d, p. 5). Despite her intense fear and
all the commotion, she had the presence of mind to rummage through her purse
to find her cigarette lighter to illuminate her watch in order to determine
the time.

Hopkins has interviewed this woman in person and over the phone.  The woman
claimed to have obtained his name in a bookstore; she called the Manhattan
directory assistance for his telephone number and then looked up his address
in the Manhattan White Pages.  She alleges that she was reticent about
speaking of the incident and had only told her son, daughter, sister, and
brother-in-law about the event.


The Nasal X-ray

In November 1991 a doctor, whom Hopkins describes as "closely connected with
Linda," took an X-ray of Linda's head because she knew about the story of
the nasal implant and because Linda frequently spoke of the problem with her
nose.  The X-ray was not developed immediately.  A few days later the doctor
brought it to Linda but was very nervous and unwilling to discuss it.  Linda
took it to Hopkins, who showed it to a neurosurgeon friend of his.  The
neurosurgeon was astounded; a sizeable, clearly non-natural object could be
seen in the nasal area.  Hopkins has shown a slide of the X-ray during his
presentations, and the implant is strikingly apparent, even to a lay
audience. The object has a shaft approximately 1/4 inch long with a
curly-cue wire structure on each end.


Other Unusual Aspects of the Case

During our meeting with Linda on February 1, she gave us additional
miscellaneous details that might be pertinent.  We were told that she
believed that she was under surveillance and described a light silver-gray
van that had parked near her apartment.  She also claimed that she had once
been a professional singer and the lead on a hit record, but she had lost
her singing voice one day while in the shower.  Linda mentioned that she was
given to understand that her blood was quite unusual.  A doctor had informed
her that her red blood cells did not die, but instead they rejuvenated.  She
wondered whether this might be due to an alien influence; some time later
she attempted to locate the doctor but was unable to do so.  Linda seemed to
imply that she now believed that she was part alien or somehow worked with
the aliens.

Linda also told us that she had an agreement with Budd Hopkins to split
equally any profits from a book on the case.


INITIAL PROBLEMS WITH THE CASE


There are a number of obvious but unanswered questions that raise immediate
doubts about the credibility of the case.

The most serious problem is that the three alleged principal corroborating
witnesses (Richard, Dan, and Perez de Cuellar) have not been interviewed
face- to-face by Hopkins, although it has been over a year and a half since
initial contact with Hopkins and over three years since the abduction.

Richard and Dan allegedly met with Linda and have written letters to
Hopkins.  Linda has a picture of Dan.  Yet Dan and Richard refuse to speak
directly with Hopkins.  No hard evidence confirms that Richard and Dan even
exist.

Though they initially expressed extreme concern over the well being of
Linda, the alleged "Dan" and "Richard" waited more than a year before
contacting Linda and Hopkins.  Why?  Furthermore, they contacted Hopkins
before they visited Linda.  How did this come about?  After all, they knew
the location of Linda's apartment, so it would seem that they would have had
no reason to contact Hopkins.  Why did they bother with him at all?

The woman on the bridge said that before contacting Hopkins she only
discussed the matter with her son, daughter, sister and brother-in-law.  Why
didn't she contact other UFO investigators?  Why only Hopkins?  If there is
some unclear reporting on this point and she did actually contact others,
can such be verified?  Has there been any investigation of this woman such
as checking with her neighbors, friends, family, or previous employers?
What is her background?  Has she had any previous relationship with Linda?
These questions have not been addressed, and thus the credibility of the
only directly interviewed, corroborating, first-hand witness remains in
doubt.

Dan has spent time in a mental institution.  Richard suffered extreme
emotional distress, forcing him to take a leave of absence from his job.
Assuming that these two people actually exist, one must now be careful in
accepting their claims (even if offered in good faith).  Despite their
debilitating mental problems, at least one of them was allowed to drive a
car with UN license plates.  Are we really to believe that they returned to
active duty in a sensitive position (presumably carrying firearms) and were
given use of an official car?

Who was the doctor who took the X-rays?  We are only told that this person
is closely connected with Linda.  Why isn't a formal report available?
Given the alarming nature of the outcome, why wasn't there an immediate
examination? Linda said that the doctor was "nervous" and didn't want to
talk about the X- ray.  It is not clear whether Hopkins has ever met this
alleged doctor. Instead, Hopkins showed the X-ray to a friend of his.  Some
have speculated that Linda may have simply put some small object in her nose
and had a friendly X-ray technician assist.  We have seen no evidence to
exclude this possibility.

Linda claims that she was kidnapped twice, nearly drowned, and further
harassed.  Yet she refuses to contact the police, even after Hopkins'
urging. During the February 1, 1992 meeting with Stefula and Butler, Linda
asked if she had legal grounds to "shoot" Dan if he attempted another
abduction of her by force.  Stefula advised against it and recommended that
she go to the police and make an official complaint.  She declined.  If she
was afraid, why didn't her husband contact authorities?  The most plausible
reason is that if a report was filed, and her story proved false, she could
be subject to criminal charges.  Linda's failure here raises enormous
questions of credibility.


OUR INVESTIGATION


Despite the numerous problems outlined above, we believed it worthwhile to
gain additional information because so many people had contacted us with
questions.  On September 19, 1992, Stefula, Butler, and Hansen traveled to
New York City in order to visit the site of the alleged abduction.  We found
that Linda's apartment complex has a large courtyard with guard house manned
24 hours a day.  We talked with the security guard and his supervisor and
asked if they had ever heard about a UFO encounter near the complex.  They
reported hearing nothing about one.  We also asked if the police routinely
enter the complex and undertake door-to-door canvassing in order to find
witnesses to crimes.  They said that this was a very rare practice.  We
obtained the name and phone number of the apartment manager and called him a
few days later.  He reported knowing nothing about the UFO sighting, nor had
he heard anything about it from any of the approximately 1600 residents in
the complex.

We also visited the site under the FDR drive where Richard and Dan
purportedly parked their car.  This was in a direct line of sight and nearly
across the street from the loading dock of the New York Post.  We spoke with
an employee of the Post, who told us that the dock was in use through most
of the night.  A few days later, we called the New York Post and spoke to
the person who was the loading dock manager in 1989.  He told us that the
dock is in use until 5:00 a.m. and that there are many trucks that come and
go frequently during the early morning hours.  The manager knew nothing of
the UFO which supposedly appeared only a couple blocks away.

Also in September, a colleague of ours contacted the Downtown Heliport, on
Pier Six on the East River of Manhattan.  That is the only heliport on the
east side of Manhattan between Linda's apartment and the lower tip of the
island. Our colleague was informed that the normal hours of operation of the
heliport are from 7:00 a.m to 7:00 p.m.  The Senior Airport Operations Agent
researched the records and found that there were no helicopter movements on
November 30, 1989 before normal hours.  Our colleague was also told that
about six months previously, the heliport authorities had been approached by
a man in his fifties with white hair who had made a similar inquiry.  That
man had asked about a UFO that had crashed into the East River.


The Meeting of October 3

On October 3, 1992, we met with Hopkins and his colleagues at his residence
in Manhattan.  Among those in attendance were David Jacobs, Walter H.
Andrus, and Jerome Clark.  During our meeting a number of questions were
raised, and some of Hopkins' answers revealed a great deal about his
investigations as well as the attitudes of Jacobs, Andrus, and Clark.
Linda's statements also told us much.

We inquired if Hopkins had asked the guards of the apartment complex whether
they had seen the UFO.  He indicated that he had not done so.  This is quite
surprising, considering that the UFO was so bright that the woman on the
bridge had to shield her eyes from it even though she was more than a
quarter mile distant.  One would have thought that Hopkins would have made
inquiries of the guards considering the spectacular nature of the event.

We noted that Linda had claimed that police canvassing of her apartment
complex was a common occurrence.  We asked Hopkins if he had attempted to
verify this with the guards or the building manager.  He indicated that he
did not feel it necessary.  Although this is a minor point, it is one of the
few directly checkable statements made by Linda, but Hopkins did not attempt
to confirm it.

We asked about the weather on the night of the abduction.  Amazingly,
Hopkins told us that he didn't know the weather conditions for that period.
This was perhaps one of the most revealing moments, and it gives great
insight into Hopkins' capabilities as an investigator.  If the weather had
been foggy, rainy, or snowing, the visibility could have been greatly
hampered, and the reliability of the testimony of the witnesses would need
to be evaluated accordingly.  Even the very first form in the MUFON Field
Investigator's Manual requests information on weather conditions (Fowler,
1983, p. 30).  We ourselves did check the weather and knew the conditions
did not impede visibility.  But the fact that Hopkins apparently had not
bothered to obtain even this most basic investigatory information was
illuminating.  He claims to have much supporting evidence that he has not
revealed to outsiders; however, because of Hopkins' demonstrated failure to
check even the most rudimentary facts, we place absolutely no credence in
his undisclosed "evidence."

During the discussions, Hopkins' partisans made allusions to other world
figures involved in this event, though they did not give names.  Hopkins'
supporters, who had been given information denied to us, seemed to believe
that there was a large motorcade that carried Perez de Cuellar and these
other dignitaries in the early morning hours of November 30, 1989.  At the
meeting, we presented an outside expert consultant who for many years had
served in dignitary protective services.  He described the extensive
preplanning required for moving officials and the massive coordination
during the movements.  Many people and networks would be alerted if there
were any problems at all (such as a car stalling, or a delay in passing
checkpoints).  His detailed presentation seemed to take Hopkins aback.  The
consultant listed several specialized terms used by the dignitary protective
services and suggested that Hopkins ask Richard and Dan the meaning of those
terms as a test of their knowledge, and thus credibility.  As far as we
know, Hopkins has failed to contact Richard and Dan about that matter.

During the beginning part of the October 3 meeting, Linda's husband answered
a few questions (in a very quiet voice).  He seemed to have difficulty with
some of them, and Linda spoke up to "correct" his memory.  He left the
meeting very early, even though Linda was under considerable stress, and
despite the fact that she was overheard asking him to stay by her side.  His
leaving raised many questions in our minds.

Linda also responded to questions during the meeting.  Early in the
discussion, Hansen asked Linda's husband whether he was born and raised in
the U.S.  He replied that he had come to this country when he was 17.  Linda
promptly interjected that she knew why Hansen had asked that question.
During a prior telephone conversation between Linda and Hansen, Linda had
asserted that her husband was born and raised in New York.  She acknowledged
that she had previously deliberately misled Hansen.

Later in the meeting the question arose about a financial agreement between
Linda and Hopkins.  Stefula noted that Linda had told him that she and
Hopkins had an agreement to split profits from a book.  Hopkins denied that
there was any such arrangement, and Linda then claimed that she had
deliberately planted disinformation.

During the meeting, reports were heard from two psychologists.  They
concluded that Linda's intelligence was in the "average" range.  One
suggested that Linda would need the mind of a Bobby Fischer to plan and
execute any hoax that could explain this case and that she was not capable
of orchestrating such a massive, complex operation.  Although these were
supposedly professional opinions, we were not given the names of these
psychologists.

Ms. Penelope Franklin also attended the meeting.  She is a close colleague
of Hopkins and the editor of IF--The Bulletin of the Intruders Foundation.
Hopkins had previously informed us in writing that Ms. Franklin was a
coinvestigator on the Napolitano case.  In a conversation during a break in
the meeting, Franklin asserted to Hansen that Linda was absolutely justified
in lying about the case.  This remarkable statement was also witnessed by
Vincent Creevy, who happened to be standing between Franklin and Hansen.

Franklin's statement raises very troubling questions, especially given her
prominence within Hopkins' circle of colleagues.  Her statement appears to
violate all norms of scientific integrity.  We can only wonder whether Linda
has been counseled to lie by Hopkins or his colleagues.  Have other
abductees been given similar advice?  What kind of a social and ethical
environment are Hopkins and Franklin creating for abductees?  We also cannot
help but wonder whether Hopkins and Franklin believe it appropriate for
themselves to lie about the case.  They owe the UFO research community an
explanation for Franklin's statement.  If such is not forthcoming, we simply
cannot accept them as credible investigators.


<< cont in part 2 >>


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Linda Napolitano Report - 2/2
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:07:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 637


<< Linda Report - Part  2 >>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


HOPKINS' REACTION TO OUR INVESTIGATION


In concluding his Mufon UFO Journal paper, Hopkins wrote: "if rumors are
true and there are officially sanctioned intelligence agents within the
various UFO investigative networks, these people will also be mobilized to
subvert the case from the inside, even before its full dimensions are made
known to the public at large" (Hopkins, 1992c, p. 16).  Hopkins apparently
takes this idea quite seriously.  After he learned of our investigation, he
warned Butler that he suspected Butler and Stefula of being government
agents and that he planned to inform others of his suspicions.  A few weeks
after our October 3 meeting, he told people that he suspected Hansen of
being a CIA agent.  This was not an offhand remark made to a friend in an
informal setting; rather this was asserted to a woman whom he did not know
and who had happened to attend one of his lectures (member of MUFON in New
Jersey who feared future repercussions if her name was mentioned, personal
communication, November 7, 1992).



A POSSIBLE LITERARY BASIS FOR ELEMENTS OF THE STORY


This case is quite exotic, even for a UFO abduction.  Government agents are
involved, the UN Secretary General is a key witness, Linda was kidnapped in
the interests of national security, concerns are expressed about world
peace, the CIA is attempting to discredit the case, and the ETs helped end
the Cold War. The story is truly marvellous, and one might wonder about its
origin.  We wish to draw the readers' attention to the science fiction
novel, Nighteyes, by Garfield Reeves-Stevens.  This work was first published
in April 1989, a few months before Linda claimed to have been abducted from
her apartment.

The experiences reported by Linda seem to be a composite of those of two
characters in Nighteyes: Sarah and Wendy.  The parallels are striking; some
are listed in Table 1.  We have not bothered to include the similarities
commonly reported in abduction experiences (e.g., implants, bodily
examinations, probes, etc.).  The parallels are sufficiently numerous to
lead us to suspect that the novel served as the basis for Linda's story.  We
want to emphasize that the parallels are with discrete elements of the case
and not with the story line itself.


Table 1 - Similarities Between the Linda Napolitano Case and the Science
Fiction Novel Nighteyes


*  Linda was abducted into a UFO hovering over her high-rise apartment
building in New York City.

   Sarah was abducted into a UFO hovering over her high-rise apartment
   building in New York City.


*  Dan and Richard initially claimed to have been on a stakeout and were
involved in a UFO abduction in during early morning hours.

   Early in Nighteyes two government agents were on a stakeout and became
   involved in a UFO abduction during early morning hours.


*  Linda was kidnapped and thrown into a car by Richard and Dan.

   Wendy was kidnapped and thrown into a van by Derek and Merril.


*  Linda claimed to have been under surveillance by someone in a van.

   Vans were used for surveillance in Nighteyes.


*  Dan is a security and intelligence agent.

   Derek was an FBI agent.


*  Dan was hospitalized for emotional trauma.

   One of the government agents in Nighteyes was hospitalized for emotional
   trauma.



*  During the kidnapping Dan took Linda to a safe house.

   During the kidnapping Derek took Wendy to a safe house.



*  The safe house Linda visited was on the beach.

   In Nighteyes, one safe house was on the beach.



*  Before her kidnapping, Linda contacted Budd Hopkins about her abduction.

   Before her kidnapping, Wendy contacted Charles Edward Starr about her
   abduction.



*  Budd Hopkins is a prominent UFO abduction researcher living in New York
City and an author who has written books on the topic.

   Charles Edward Starr was a prominent UFO abduction researcher living in
   New York City and an author who had written books on the topic.


*  Linda and Dan were abducted at the same time and communicated with each
other during their abductions.

   Wendy and Derek were abducted at the same time and communicated with each
   other during their abductions.


*  Linda thought she "knew" Richard previously.

   Wendy "knew" Derek previously.


*  Dan expressed a romantic interest in Linda.

   Derek became romantically involved with Wendy.


*  Dan and Richard felt considerable vibration during the close encounter.

   During the UFO landing in Nighteyes there was much vibration.


*  Photographs of Linda were taken on the beach and sent to Hopkins.

   In Nighteyes, photographs taken on a beach played a central role.



THE REACTION OF THE UFOLOGY'S LEADERSHIP


One of the most curious features of our investigation has been the reaction
of several prominent leaders in ufology.  Indeed, in the long run, this may
turn out to be the most important part of the entire affair.

After the MUFON symposium in July, Stefula had several conversations with
Walter Andrus, International Director of MUFON.  Andrus told him that MUFON
had no interest in publishing any material critical of this case even though
they had published an article describing it as "The Abduction Case of the
Century." This is a most surprising statement from a leader of an
organization which purports to be scientific.  Andrus' statements should
raise questions about the legitimacy of MUFON's claims to use objective,
scientific methods.

On September 14, 1992, Hopkins faxed Butler a letter saying that as a
long-standing member of MUFON, he was issuing an "order" (his word).  He
"ordered" Stefula and Butler to stop their investigation of the case.  We
found this very curious, and we wondered how Hopkins, as a member of MUFON,
could believe that it was in his power to issue such an "order."  His letter
seemed to reflect the mindset of a leader of a cult rather than that of an
investigator searching for the truth.

For the meeting on October 3 in New York City, Hopkins flew in his close
friend Jerome Clark from Minnesota.  Under the sway of Hopkins, Clark
strenuously urged that outsiders cease investigations, thus seemingly trying
to reinforce Hopkins' earlier "order" (despite the fact that the case
already had been reported in the Wall Street Journal, Omni, Paris Match and
the television show Inside Edition).  Clark (1992a) later committed his
position to writing, saying that this case may indeed involve a world
political figure and have international consequences.

Andrus and Clark are arguably the two most influential figures in U.S.
ufology.  Andrus is International Director of the Mutual UFO Network
(MUFON), and he organizes the largest annual conference on UFOs in the
country and regularly writes for MUFON's monthly magazine.  Clark is a
columnist for Fate magazine, editor of International UFO Reporter,
vice-president of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, and author of
books and even an encyclopedia on UFOs.  Because of their eminence, their
statements should be of special concern to the UFO research community.

At the meeting on October 3, the kidnapping and attempted murder of Linda
were discussed.  We informed Hopkins and the other participants that we were
prepared to make a formal request for a federal investigation of the
government agents responsible for the alleged felonies.  Hopkins, Andrus,
and Clark appeared to literally panic at the suggestion.  They vigorously
argued against making such a request.  We could only conclude that they
wanted to suppress evidence of attempted murder.  We wondered why.

This situation seemed so outrageous that a few days later Hansen called
Andrus, Clark, John Mack, and David Jacobs and asked them if they really
believed Linda's story about the kidnappings and attempted murder.  All of
these individuals said that they accepted her account.  We were forced to
seriously consider their opinions because they had been given secret
information not revealed to us.  During the telephone conversations, Andrus
and Clark again strongly objected to requesting an investigation by law
enforcement authorities.



A PSYCHO-SOCIAL PERSPECTIVE


The Napolitano case brings into stark relief symptoms of deep problems
within ufology: major figures in the UFO community aggressively sought to
suppress evidence of a purported attempted murder; Hopkins failed to obtain
and verify even the most basic investigatory information; his
coinvestigator, Penelope Franklin, approved of lying by the principal
witness; and leaders in the field have willingly accepted and promoted the
case despite its exotic features and lack of supporting evidence.  This
state of affairs raises perplexing questions and cries out for a plausible
explanation.  The thinking and motivations of ufology's leaders deserve at
least as much attention as the abduction claims themselves.

Did these leaders really believe, as they said, that they accepted the
report of attempted murder?  If so, they seem not to have acted as
responsible citizens.  However, these people do not appear to us to be
delusional, in any usual sense of that word.  They are highly functional
members of society.  They also do not appear to be perpetrators of a hoax or
even "yellow journalists" with a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" attitude who
knowingly want to capitalize on it for their own temporary glory or
financial gain.

We believe that other motivating factors and concepts provide a better
explanation and framework for understanding these seemingly bizarre actions.
We would suggest that perhaps, at some semiconscious level, these
individuals do not really believe their UFO investigations to be fully
engaged with the "real world."  Rather, their behavior and statements seem
more consistent with something like fantasy role playing, perhaps akin to
the game Dungeons and Dragons (D & D).

Both ufology and D & D allow direct, immediate involvement with powerful
"other-world" beings and mythological motifs.  Both endeavors have been
known to overtake (possess?) the participants, though only occasionally to
their detriment.  Most "players" are able to successfully detach themselves
from involvement, but occasionally the "game" becomes obsessive and
interferes with "real-world" pursuits.  This "role playing" taps archetypal
images that hold great psychological power.  The archetypes can become
immensely attractive, even addictive, to those playing the game.  The
notions and images of powerful "other-world" figures are part of the human
condition.  Accounts of them are found in all cultures throughout history,
this being one of the traditional domains of religion.  Even atheists and
those who deny the existence of such beings must still grapple with the
ideas on some level, though this might not be consciously recognized by an
individual.

In the Napolitano case, the "other-world" figures include not only the ET
aliens, but also the pantheon of agents of an unreachable, evil government
conspiracy determined to prevent humankind's knowledge of the ETs.
Intermediaries between flesh and blood humans and the powerful masters of
the mystical higher orders are ubiquitous in the realm of religion.  Angels
and devils serve the centers of ultimate good and evil.  So here we see the
largely invisible minions "Dan" and "Richard" and the mysterious witness on
the bridge furthering the cause of "Truth."  Likewise, Hopkins discerns the
skeptical investigators as agents of a secular satan.

Thus the interactions of Hopkins, et al., with these players are seen to
conform to the rules that historically control the interactions between
humans and gods.  Humans question and provoke the gods only at the greatest
peril. The proper approach is to appease, mollify and supplicate these
"entities."  It should be no surprise that the simplest reality tests of the
Napolitano story were not made in this case.  Hopkins' failure to check the
weather conditions during the abduction actually makes sense in the context
of this cult-like thought process.  Just as lice were called "pearls of
heaven" by medieval religious devotees, the physical event-reality issues in
the Linda story are transmuted by her supporters.

The roles of high priest and acolytes are only too obvious when examaning
the behaviors of personages Hopkins, Clark, Jacobs, and Andrus.  These aging
white males patronizingly refer to Linda's "average" intellect, perhaps to
reassure themselves that they are indeed in control.  Yet the high priestess
has, in effect, achieved the godhead (metaphorically speaking, of course).

There are some differences between D & D and ufological pursuits.  D & D has
more restrictive and structured rules.  The boundaries of appropriate
behavior are rather clearly defined.  Ufology is more "unstructured," there
are fewer "rules" about what is and is not possible, and the powers of the
"other- world" figures are almost unbounded.  This relative lack of
structure makes the UFO game somewhat more "dangerous."  In order to grapple
with the phenomena, the paradigms adopted by many ufologists have
"concretized" (i.e., structured) the beings as ET humanoids.

In fantasy role playing, the rules are not questioned; they are accepted by
the players at the beginning.  Similarly in the Linda case, the basic
evidence is not to be questioned.  Andrus, Clark, and Hopkins have all urged
that outsiders cease investigation (despite the massive publicity given to
the case).  Such challenging of "rules" leads to disruptions of the "game,"
and the dungeon masters need to keep order.

Direct interfacing of the "fantasy role" with the "real-world" (i.e., direct
allegations of attempted murder, verification of details of testimony),
usually does not cause problems, except when the players do not act in
accordance with consequential "real-world" concerns.  Hopkins, Andrus,
Clark, Mack, and Jacobs seem to have accepted a system of beliefs and
assumptions that have led to a collision with the "real world."  They have
been unable to rationally defend their behavior, and Jerome Clark's (1992a)
"Torquemada" article is perhaps the single best example of that.  In fact,
his emotional attack labeling Hansen as "Torquemada" (director of the
Spanish Inquisition) ressurects and reinforces religious themes, and it
perhaps betrays his unconscious feelings of religious persecution.

The above discussion derives from a psycho-social perspective, and we would
like to encourage U.S. researchers to become more familiar the ideas
generated from that approach.  We admit that the psycho-social theorists
have failed to address many aspects of the abduction experience generally.
Exclusive use of that perspective can lead to positing simplistic and
scientifically sterile explanations.  On the other hand, those that shun the
psycho-social perspective typically fail to recognize the explanatory power
it possesses and its ability to illuminate risks faced by investigators.
Those wanting more information about the psycho-social perspective may wish
to read the book Angels and Aliens by Keith Thompson (1991) and the British
magazine Magonia; almost without saying, the works of John Keel are also
recommended.

We are not denigrating ufology by such comparisons as those made above, nor
are we attacking the existence of "other-world" entities.  Regardless
whether entities or ET aliens exist, the comparisons are useful and the
consequences and insights are applicable.  Such a comparative analysis
should not be limited to only D & D players and ufologists; similar
comparisons could be made for virtually everyone in the "real world."  They
can help serve as warnings about becoming too complacent regarding beliefs
in our own "rationality."



DISCUSSION


The Napolitano case appears beset by an overwhelming number of problems. It
was with some misgivings that we first embarked on this investigation
because we did not wish to see UFO abduction research discredited.  In fact,
one of us, Butler, has had abduction experiences himself.  It was our
judgement that if we did not raise these issues for public discussion, there
was a much greater risk for the field.  The case was garnering considerable
attention, and if it became widely regarded as evidential, it would reflect
very badly on the field as a whole if it was eventually shown to be false.

We were quite unprepared for the reaction to our work from leaders of the
field.  Walter Andrus and Jerome Clark aggressively tried to dissuade us
from continuing our investigation, and so far they have failed to publish
any material critical of the case.  We were unaware that such belligerently
antiscientific attitudes were so prevalent at the highest levels of ufology.
When these same individuals attempted to suppress evidence of an alleged
attempted murder, we concluded that their beliefs and actions were
incompatible with "real world" events.  However, we do not consider the
label "deluded" appropriate here, and we remind the reader that these
individuals are backed by people such as Harvard psychiatrist John Mack and
David Jacobs, professor of history at Temple University.

Despite our disappointment, we strongly support scientific research into the
abduction phenomena and would like to call attention to high quality studies
in the field (e.g., Ring & Rosing, 1990; Rodeghier, Goodpaster &
Blatterbauer, 1992).  We also believe that the core abduction experience has
not been adequately explained within normal scientific frameworks.  We
commend the work of Hufford (1982) in exploring similar issues.

The present case has significant implications for assessing the true nature
of the abduction phenomena.  The idea that actual extraterrestrial physical
creatures are abducting people has been vigorously promoted in the
scientific literature and in the media.  Jacobs has promoted that view in
the New York Times (Hinds, 1992) as well as in the Journal of UFO Studies
(Jacobs, 1992). He suggests that the ET aliens are visiting earth in order
to obtain human sperm and eggs.  In his JUFOS article, Jacobs was bitterly
critical of Ring and Rosing, saying that they ignored "cases of witnesses
seeing others being abducted while not being abducted themselves" (p. 162).
Surprizingly, Jacobs gave no citations for any of these cases.  Hansen wrote
to Jacobs requesting such citations but received no reply.  Jacobs' article
was lavish in its praise for Hopkins' work, and we suspect that Jacobs had
in mind the Napolitano case when he wrote his article.  We would like to
remind the reader that it was Hopkins (1992a) who wrote: "The importance of
this case is virtually immeasurable, as it powerfully supports both the
objective reality of UFO abductions and the accuracy of regressive
hypnosis."  Because the argument for the "objective reality of UFO
abductions" relies heavily on Hopkins' work, our findings call into question
this entire theoretical perspective.

In our judgment, conscious hoaxes are rare in the abduction field.  The vast
majority of those claiming to be abducted have had some kind of intense
personal experience, whatever the ultimate cause.  Nevertheless, the
problems of fraud and hoaxing have long been a problem in ufology,
especially for cases with high visibility.  This will continue.  Researchers
must become more open minded to the potential for hoaxing, yet not be
blinded to the genuine phenomena.  This is a difficult balance.

Some have questioned possible motives in this case; it is impossible to
obtain certain knowledge here.  Perhaps Linda really had some kind of an
abduction experience (Butler believes this is likely to be the case).  As
she became acquainted with Hopkins and other abductees, she may have wanted
to vindicate them--to save them from ridicule and derision.  Perhaps money
was the only motivation.  Possibly there was a combination of factors.  It
does appear that if this was a hoax, it was not perpetrated by a lone
individual. Collaborators would include the woman on the bridge, an X-ray
operator, and a man (or men) preparing the tape recordings.  However, we
want to emphasize that we have no direct evidence to implicate Hopkins in
attempted deception.

Cynics might criticize Hopkins saying that he ignored the obvious problems
because he was motivated by money that might accrue from books and movie
rights.  While this might possibly be an unconscious factor, critics rarely
acknowledge that Hopkins does not charge abductees for his services (unlike
some "professionals").  Hopkins has spent an enormous amount of his own time
and money investigating the phenomena.  Furthermore, he does not have an
academic position subsidized by the tax payers.  One should not begrudge him
the profits from his books.  Hopkins has been involved in considerable
controversy, and some have disputed his methods.  Nevertheless, he has done
much to bring the abduction problem to the attention of scientists and the
mental health community, and his efforts have made it much more acceptable
to discuss such strange encounters.  Abduction experiences are often
emotional and traumatic, and the abductees need considerable support.
Hopkins has attempted to provide much needed aid.

The outside critic who is not directly involved in such activities almost
never recognizes how difficult it is to serve as both a therapist and as a
scientist.  Those persons trying to help abductees emotionally need to
provide warmth, acceptance, and trust.  The scientist, however, needs to be
critically open minded and somewhat detached and analytical.  The two
functions are not altogether compatible.  We cannot realistically expect one
individual to be 100% effective in both roles.  By the nature of the
endeavor, those trying to be helpful can be vulnerable to deception.



APPENDIX

A Note on the Hansen-Clark Communications



One of the more entertaining aspects of this case has been the resulting
missives by Hansen (1992a, 1992b) and Clark (1992a, 1992b) which have been
widely circulated and posted on electronic bulletin boards.  We encourage
those interested to obtain copies.

Clark's (1992b) most recent piece deserves comment.  He now says that he now
does not accept Linda's claims about the kidnapping and attempted murder by
government agents.  However, in a telephone conversation with him on October
6, 1992, he told Hansen that he accepted those claims.  Hansen did not
tape-record the conversation, but he is willing to provide a sworn statement
to that effect.  Hansen also talked with Marcello Truzzi who had spoken to
Clark near the same time.  Truzzi understood that Clark believed that Linda
was sincere in her claims and was telling the truth to the best of her
ability.

The salient points are summarized as follows:

1.  At the 1992 MUFON symposium, Linda Napolitano spoke in front of hundreds
of people and claimed that she was kidnapped by government agents.

2.  Clark told both Hansen and Truzzi that he accepted Linda's story (i.e.,
that she was telling the truth to the best of her ability).

3.  Hopkins claims to have much evidence that could be used to identify the
culprits.

4.  Hopkins flew Clark to New York, whereupon Clark aggressively injected
himself into matters and vigorously opposed continuing an outside
investigation and reporting the alleged felonies to law enforcement
authorities.  He defended this position, in writing, saying: "if this story
is true, it is not just a UFO case but a `politically sensitive' event
because it supposedly involves a political figure of international
stature...banging on the wrong doors could alert the relevant agency that
two of its agents were leaking a huge secret." (Clark, 1992a, p. 1).

We will let the readers decide whether Clark's initial position was
compatible with "real-world" considerations.

We are gratified that Clark has taken the time to comment, at length, on
these issues, and in a style so typical of his level of dispassionate
commentary.  We caution readers that Clark perhaps may be currently acutely
embarrassed by his statement quoted in point 4 and may feel the need to
obscure this central issue.  Nevertheless, we are pleased that he now seems
to have made a cathartic conversion.


REFERENCES


Baskin, Anita.  (1992).  Antimatter: High-rise abductions: Alien abductions
routinely occur in big cities and high-rise buildings around the world.
Omni. April. Vol. 14, No. 7, p. 75.

Clark, Jerome.  (1992a).  The Politics of Torquemada; or, Earth Calling
Hansen's Planet.  612 North Oscar Avenue, Canby, Minnesota 56220.  October
24, 1992.  [This paper has been circulated and posted on electronic bulletin
boards].

Clark, Jerome.  (1992b).  Wasting Away in Torquemadaville.  November 30,
1992. [This paper has been circulated].

De Brosses, Marie-Therese.  (1992).  Enleves par les E.T.!  Paris Match.  17
Sept., pp. 13, 14, 18, 96, 98.

Drano the Sewerian [pseudonym].  (1992). SETI and military personnel monitor
secret UFO abduction conference at MIT.  Third Eyes Only.  July-August, No.
4, pp. 42-44.

Fowler, Raymond E. (Editor).  (1983).  MUFON Field Investigator's Manual.
Seguin, TX: Mutual UFO Network.

Hansen, George P.  (1992a).  Attempted Murder vs. The Politics of Ufology: A
Question of Priorities in the Linda Napolitano Case.  20 October 1992.
[This paper has been circulated and posted on a number of electronic
bulletin boards and published in several periodicals including The New
Jersey Chronicle, Vol. 3, Nos. 1/2, September-December, 1992; MUFON of Ohio
Newsletter, No. 3, Second November 1992 Issue; Third Eyes Only, No. 6,
November 1992; UFO Spotters Newsletter, No. 16, 1992; Minnesota MUFON
Newsletter, No. 37, October 1992]

Hansen, George P.  (1992b).  "Torquemada" Responds to Jerome Clark.  23
November 1992.  [This paper has been circulated and posted on a number of
electronic bulletin boards.]

Hatfield, Scott.  (1992).  X-Ray Said to Show Alien Implant.  ADVANCE for
Radiologic Science Professionals.  October 26, p. 11.

Hinds, Michael deCourcy.  (1992).  Taking U.F.O.'s for Credit, and for Real.
New York Times, 28 October, p. B9.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1981).  Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions.
New York: Richard Marek.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1987).  Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley
Woods. New York: Random House.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1991).  Innocent bystanders.  IF-The Bulletin of the
Intruders Foundation.  Vol. 1, No. 3, pp. 1-4.

Hopkins, [Budd].  (1992a).  A doubly witnessed abduction.  Abstracts:
Abduction Study Conference at Massachusetts Institute of Technology prepared
by Andrea Pritchard.  June 13-17, p. III-B.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1992b).  An Open Letter From Budd Hopkins.  Mufon UFO
Journal, June, p. 20.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1992c).  The Linda Cortile [Napolitano] Abduction Case.
Mufon UFO Journal, September, pp. 12-16.

Hopkins, Budd.  (1992d).  The Linda Cortile [Napolitano] Abduction Case:
Part II "The Woman on the Bridge (sic).  Mufon UFO Journal, December, pp.
5-9.

Hufford, David J.  (1982).  The Terror That Comes in the Night: An
Experience- Centered Study of Supernatural Assault Traditions.
Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press.

Jacobs, David M.  (1992).  On Studying the Abduction Phenomenon Without
Knowing What It Is.  Journal of UFO Studies, New Series Vol. 3, 153-163.

Jefferson, David J.  (1992).  A Harvard doctor offers trauma relief for UFO
`abductees.'  Wall Street Journal, May 14, pp. A1, A10.

Mack, John E.  (1992a).  Helping Abductees.  International UFO Reporter.
July/ August, pp. 10-15, 20.

Mack, John E.  (1992b).  Other Realities: The "Alien Abduction" Phenomenon.
Noetic Sciences Review.  Autumn, pp. 5-11.

McKenna, Chris.  (1992).  Doc `Abducted by Aliens' Ruled Fit to Work.  New
York Post, November 21, pp. 5, 13.

Reeves-Stevens, Garfield.  (1989).  Nighteyes.  New York: Doubleday.

Ring, Kenneth; & Rosing, Christopher J.  (1990).  The Omega Project: A
Psychological Survey of Persons Reporting Abductions and Other UFO
Encounters. Journal of UFO Studies, New Series Vol. 2, 59-98.

Rodeghier, Mark; Goodpaster, Jeff; & Blatterbauer, Sandra.  (1992).
Psychosocial Characteristics of Abductees: Results From the CUFOS Abduction
Project.  Journal of UFO Studies, New Series Vol. 3, 59-90.

Sontag, Deborah.  (1992).  Reverence and Rigidity in the New Age: At the
Whole Life Expo the Spirits are Willing So Long as the Wallet is Not Weak.
New York Times, October 5, pp. B1, B2.

Stacy, Dennis.  (1992).  The 1992 MUFON Symposium.  Mufon UFO Journal,
August, pp. 3-10.

Thompson, Keith.  (1991).  Angels and Aliens: UFOs and the Mythic
Imagination. Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley Publishing Company.

Unusual Personal Experiences: An Analysis of the Data from Three National
Surveys Conducted by the Roper Organization.  (1992).  Las Vegas, NV:
Bigelow Holding Corporation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledgements: We would like to thank Philip J. Klass for assistance.  We
would also like to thank Vincent Creevy for providing materials and bringing
the novel Nighteyes to our attention.  Thanks are also due to several who
provided help but do not want their names associated with the field of
ufology.


Joseph Stefula is a former Special Agent for the U.S. Army Criminal
Investigations Command and is a former MUFON State Director for New Jersey.
He resigned his directorship shortly after finishing this investigation.

Richard Butler is a former law enforcement and security police specialist
for the U.S. Air Force and now a UFO investigator researching abductions and
government cover-ups.

George Hansen has conducted parapsychological research and is author of the
article "CSICOP and the Skeptics: An Overview" which appeared in the January
1992 Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research.


Joseph Stefula [phone]
7 Michigan Terrace
Browns Mills, NJ  08015


Richard Butler [phone]
P.O. Box 65
Mays Landing, NJ  08330


George Hansen [phone]
Princeton Arms North 1, Apt. 59
Cranbury, NJ  08512


08 January 1993


** End of File **



--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
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From: [e-mail] (Richard Salter)
Subject: Mr Sceptic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: richs@cogs (Richard Salter)
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:51:50 GMT
Lines: 28

I've just found this group this evening, and I'm quite interested in the
subject matter. However, I have never had an encounter, and I now nobody
who has, though I have read lots of UFO stories in books people used to
give me in the past. Anyway, I would be grateful if anybody could send
me (by e-mail unless you particularly want to post) some acounts of UFO
sightings and other unexplained phenomena because I'm gonna take some
convincing....

Oh yeah, who are all these people who post to random newsgroups saying
that anyone on that newsgroup is a loser with no life. These people
really irritate me. I'm not a firm believer in UFOs, but I'm not gonna
insult anybody here who does....

regards and thanks,

Happy Halibut II (made up name)

----

******************************************************************************
*               ......Expect some madness in your mailbox......              *
******************************************************************************
*                                  /                                         *
*        [e-mail]    /         "from rags to richs"             *
*                                /                                           *
******************************************************************************


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!syma!richs
From: [e-mail] (Richard Salter)
Subject: Re: What do I do when...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: richs@cogs (Richard Salter)
Organization: University of Sussex
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:55:58 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David T.) writes:
|> Just out of curiosity what should I or anyone else do if visited by an ET? Run,
|> pull out the video camera, or submit to their requests???

Simple, offer them a recording contract and then send the video tape to "You've
Been Framed" (that's a British show where funny videos are sent in by the public
and the best wins a prize, for all you non-Brits)

Happy Halibut III

----

******************************************************************************
*               ......Expect some madness in your mailbox......              *
******************************************************************************
*                                  /                                         *
*        [e-mail]    /         "from rags to richs"             *
*                                /                                           *
******************************************************************************


From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!unlisys!harvey!krypta!uucp
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pleiadian problems
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:08:00 +0200
Lines: 28

Hello Jeff!

Friday January 08 1993, Jeff writes to All:

 >> A few sources state that the Pleiadians no longer visit us because they
 >> have "problems at home" that they must attend to. Does anybody know what
 >> these problems are supposed to be? Thankyou Peter T.
 J> I would be interested to hear about your sources.

In december'92, I hear from a channel (Heliodor from the plejades was channeled)
that a planet on the plejades was a short time in war...

I don't know, if I can believe it...

cheers
   Andre

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Sigma-Alpha>=- The UFO Information In Berlin (2:2403/10)
From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!unlisys!harvey!krypta!uucp
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: i have a question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:36:00 +0200
Lines: 26

Hello John_-_Winston!

Saturday January 09 1993, John_-_Winston writes to All:

 J-W> Dear People: I have been asked why I think people can go to Venus and
 J-W> other planets after a conditioning period and how people from Venus
 J-W> can come here. One of the first reasons that I believe it is that I

A friend says, he was visited from a girl. She says, that she's not from earth
but from a planet names "paxas" ...(???).
If you like to read the whole story, I will send you the german-language
message.
I think it's possible... but belive ??? I don't know...

 J-W> A person by the name of Buck Nelson made some visits to
 J-W> other planets and he was subjected to some energy that  over a two
 J-W> week period changed the resonant frequency of his body so that he
 J-W> could exist on Venus with no problem.

It sounds possible... I heared about the technique to change the body frequency
for interdimensional travel.

cheers
   Andre

 * Origin: Centre for interdimensional Communication - Berlin (2:2403/10)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Alien Past.
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:32:57 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
>\JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 5.01.93 um 22:32:
>
>\P> Subject: Have You Lived On An Other Planet Before?
>\P> [...]
>\P>    "I agree with the estimate of one in five people having lived a past life
>\P> in an alien world beyond Earth," he said.
>\P>   This is me JW talking now. Lo and behold could this possibuly be true. Oh
>and so on. Do you know any more facts about that?
>
>\P> Source of Information: Weekly World News, January 19, 1993 page 21.
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Forget about the date..the bigger outpoint is the source.

*yawn*


"What are the 2 most common elements in the universe? Hydrogen and
Stupidity"

Don


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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:57:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
>some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
>
>1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
>accross cattle mutilations. This is when cattle have parts of their bodies cut
>out very precisely and all their blood drained out of them. When scientists
>examined these mutilated bodies, not a single trace of blood was found either in
>the body or on the ground around the body. What I want to know is it possible to
>recreate this effect on earth?

Sure..if you're a crack surgeon and can do it without vascular collapse..in
other words, hardly. Typically in such cases, _no_ blood is found in the
mutes, nor around the cattle. Where did it go? What PROOF exists that
UFO's have anything to do with mutes? What evidence exists that will
incontrovertibly demonstrate that?

In other words...we don't KNOW..we only know the effects, but not the
cause..we "theorize" and "speculate" that "aliens" have something to
do with it, however no evidence can be shown to prove it.

>3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
>is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
>claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two). I mean, the
>star, not a planet).

Gag! Calling Tim Good's book "Alien Liason"  'respectable' is pure bullshit.

And _Bob Oechsler_ is a TOTAL Bullshit artist..I HAVE talked with him.

Do some more research..the more I see about "respectable experts"..the
more of a skeptic I become..the biggest horseshit artists today are
Bill Cooper, Stanton Friedman (he actually BUYS Anderson's story about
Anderson being a "witness" at the 2nd Roswell crash..pure crap..ask Kevin
Randle and Don Ecker of UFO Magazine.

But the _biggest_ BS artist of the year award must go to Budd Hopkins
and his infamous "Linda case".

Listen..read everything you can..and remain skeptical. Ask HARD questions,
accept nothing at face value..especially the pronouncements of so-called
"experts". Accept nothing on "faith". I've been in this for well over 12
years and question _everything_ .

>
>4) JW isn't mad, just a disinformer.
>

Naw..he ain't a dis-informer...just a lonely old man :}


Don Allen
Fido UFO Echo Moderator

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Bigfoot Is Back.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 01:26:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50


Subject: Bigfoot Is Back.
   Well it seems that our friend Bigfoot, or Bigfootb if you like, is back
in the news  again. It seems they have located a female. So here is
how the information goes; ...The female beast "looked incredibly human.
" She stood 7 teet tall and smelled "just like a jungle animal." Her legs
looked like "coiled springs: and her gigantic hands looked strong enough
"to choke a mountain lion."  With those remarkale words, a member of
a scientific expedition described his amazing encounter witha peaceful
Bigfoot in the Chequamegon National Forest in northwestern Wisconsin.
  "The huge figure was covered with ash-grey hair, but I could see that it
was female," anthropologist Kevin Sang told reporters in Milwaukee.
  : There were bald patches on her body, revealing a gray, coarse skin,
and sores from scratching. Her breasts were relatively small but her face
was what really stood out. Itt conveyed a simple intelligence, which was
later born out by a psychic, Maria Venturi, who was on the expediton with
us. She attempted to communicate with the Bgfoot telepathically. She
asked the creature what her name was and the answer was Kekha-Tehee.
  The California-based anthropologist said the expedition was not only
an attempt to prove the exisatence of the legendary Bigfoot, but to establish
telepathic communication with one.
  In mid November 23 members of the expedion including psychic Maria
trekked into the rugged forest where hunters claimed to have seen a Bigfoot
earlier in the year.
  Sang noted that the psychic's job was twofold; To sense the presence of
a Bigfoot and to send out friendly thoughts to lure the creature out of
hiding.
    "We set up camp the night of Noember 18 in an area where Maria sensed
a strong presence of a Bigfoot," said the scientist. :We were asleep when it
happened. Maria awoke  and said she felt like she was being watched by
unseen eyes.   'We crawled out of our tents, flicked on our flashlights and
there she was, sitting on a rock about 15 yards away.   "Even from that
distance she had a heavy, pungent odor.
  "She sat there like an athlete at rest, powerful but relaxed.
 "In the dim light I could make out her eyes, which were close together,
and a long, wide nose with flared nostrils. She had a round face and long
hair that seemed to have the texture of lamb's wool. She was staring at me."
  Sang slowly retrived a camera from a duffel bag and took a photograph of
the Bigfoot before the creature rose from the rock, loped toward a 20-foot
-wide
stream-then jumped to the opposite bank in an amazing single leap. The
expediton attempted fo follow the creature's footprints after daybreak.
    But they were not able to find so much as a clue to her whereabouts.
"We're planning to return to the area next spring," said Sang.
   "And we fully expect to communicate at length with a Bigfoot when we do."
  This is me JW speaking now. The pictures that are shown with bigfoot
stories are normally not authenic but I have seen some pictures of bigfoot
that I think were actual pictures of Bigfootb.
Source of Information: Weekly World News January 26, 1993.
John Wisnton.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13519 alt.alien.visitors:12557 alt.religion.kibology:5712
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From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Where's Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 09:18:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc13.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: According to my calculations the Great Kibo should be
>returning soon. I hope he posts his paper that says everbody who
>sponsors him.
>John Winston.

Every, I say EVERY SINGLE TIME Mr._-_Winston posts, I check the path
line thinking "THIS time, by god, it's a forgery, and someone is
mocking him."

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
   (This article brouught to you by the number pi and the letter
pi)
--
" 'Socks the cat'? What is this?"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13520 alt.alien.visitors:12558
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Answers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 01:49:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Thanks very musch to Chris. You do know a lot about the
Desert. Thanks Jeff I need all the help I can get.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: i have a question (SO DO I !!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 02:00:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I do believe that this person Andre knows where of he
speaks.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 02:17:41 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Folks: I believe you will find that the Ferengi people were thought
up in the TV series because they have everyone of the bad trates that
we as humans have (let the buyer beware). The Greys are just the opposite
of us so mix us together and maybe you'll get some of the good points
of each coming through.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13521 alt.alien.visitors:12561 sci.skeptic:36930
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From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart-Brown)
Subject: Re: They Made Us.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bmdhh155
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, Maidenhead, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 10:00:11 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Who Made Us?
>  This "soul" does not have a physical presence on your level of awaremess,
>and it is not addicted to time. It is your guarantee of immortality because
>it survives the death of you body with memory, personality, and the ability
>to perceive intact.  "Humanity" is a part of the growth cycle of a very
>complex galactic consciousness.
>  Because you survive bodily death and continue to grow, and because that
>growth involes forming highly perfected symbiotic relationships, "humanity"
>may be seen as a training ground in which intelligent entities are prepared
>and made fit for unions so intimate that the components function with a
>single consciousness.


Very interesting: anyone interested in reading a good science fiction
story with a similar theme has to read Arthur C. Clarke's CHILDHOOD's END

--
"On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions who stopped
to view their success, and while resting.......died!"
[e-mail]    TEL [phone]

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 12:51:50 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

  [text deleted]
|>
|> Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?
|>


Don't stop!!  You and a few others are the only reason I still subscribe
to this group.  Your posts are sane and informative, and always interesting.
I appreciate the time and trouble you must go to to post some of the
lengthy articles I've seen here lately.

I use xrn to read the news, and the poster's name is shown next to the
article title in the previewer.  I weed out most of the garbage here by
simply homing in on your name and a few others.


Mike Lynch
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 13:36:21 GMT
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>
> So I saw Steve's .sig
>
> I guess this is directed to Steve, but I wanted to do it publicly:
>
I am not empowered to make public statements on behalf of the Human
Genome Mapping Project or the Clinical Research Centre. That is one
reason my .sig also carries a disclaimer.

> How's it going cloning human beings?
>
Good question? It looks as if it will be another 10 or 15 years before the
human genome is mapped. In my personal opinion cloning humans especially as
engineered as you propose will be a long time after that.

Of course, if Gary Stollman is a clone he could only have been created by
some higher life form, perhaps John Winston and his alien friends. :-)


> I attended a Berkeley symposium put on my Michael Lindeman's 2020 group
> and one subject that got brought up was that one of the biggest
> US government projects at Los Alimos and Larence Labs is the mapping of the
> human genome. The implications of this are enormous. Clone solders, make
> robots that do anythink you like (slaves) or create look-alikes for
> security so nobody knows which Prez is the real thing...

I believe that the Department of Energy was given the contract to look after
the US end of the Genome Project as it has expertise is running big science
projects like building H-bombs and reactors.

If by clone you mean that all you soldiers would have identical DNA, I don't
think this would make them look or behave identically. Look at studies of
identical twins. They do have in many cases many ideas the same and behave
similarly. As they get older these similarities seem to decrease. It kind
of implies that behaviour and opinions have alot to do with experience
rather than genetics. Really what you need is to understand and be able to
modify the inner workings of the brain. If you want a bunch of mindless
morons who do what they are told you would be better off with machines
or rounding up readers of World Weekly News. :-)
>
> combine that idea with the report from Bob Lazar that the greys refer to
> humans as containers, and the fact that the government is inot some
> really esoteric stuff like installing the human spirit into clones,
> and you have some strong drink to think about.
>

I understood that a number of people had expressed doubt about Lazar's
material. Better not build your house on (potential) sand

Steve
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: The_Doge
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 16:14:50 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I believe you will find that the Ferengi people were thought
>up in the TV series because they have everyone of the bad trates that
>we as humans have (let the buyer beware). The Greys are just the opposite
>of us so mix us together and maybe you'll get some of the good points
>of each coming through.
    But what *I* want to know is: howcum the Ferengi developed space
travel and transporters and all that neat stuff without *ever* learning
anything about basic dentistry?
    Kinda makes ya go "hmmmmmm".  Or "hrrrr" if you're Ferengi.

The_Doge
        ObQuote:  "The superstitions of today are the scientific facts
                   of tomorrow!"  -- Van Helsing in "Dracula" (Balderston
                                       and Dean)

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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 17:21:46 GMT
Lines: 39

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Chris Barrus):
>
>    Subject: Mitchell Caverns and Dorn Underground Cavern.
>       If a person is looking for the Underground City near Cadiz and Danby,
>    Calif. it might be good to know a little more about that general area.

   etc.

> ===================================
> This story is nothing new.  Check out any good book on the local history on
> the Mojave Desert and look for references to Crystal Cave.  It's mentioned

   etc.

   Chris proceeds to shred any strand of credibility that JW's post might
   conceivably have aspired to. Right on Chris!!  This is exactly the kind
   of objective rebuttal to JW trash that we need to see more of around here.

   So, to all you people out there who support JW and say 'he is a man of
   wisdom beyond your understanding':

      He is a man of falsehood beyond comprehension.

   Accept it, deal with your disillusion and move forward.
   If you are looking for a source of light in these dark times, look to
   the brilliant blaze of rational thought. Love and TRUTH will set you free.

>    her next husband died but she said that her husbands always died with a
>    smile on their face.
>    John Winston.
> ===============================
>
> Hey, that's great......
>
> Chris
> --

  Thanks Chris,
-Max
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13525 alt.alien.visitors:12566 sci.skeptic:36945
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From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: non-pointless talk.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 17:06:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

[deleted]
I have observed that most of the posts of this mythical character, though
pointless and a waste of bandwidth are not pointless in one sense:
The subject line ends usually with a point.  Most other posters don't
have this habit.  As my primitive newsreader doesn't list authors, it's
very convenient that I can skip his stuff without having to look at the
contents.

JWN
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 20:34:10 GMT
Lines: 17

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Michael Lynch):
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>   [text deleted]
> |>
> |> Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?
> |>
>
>
> Don't stop!!  You and a few others are the only reason I still subscribe
> to this group.  Your posts are sane and informative, and always interesting.
> Mike Lynch
> [e-mail]

  Ditto for me.
-Max

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13527 alt.alien.visitors:12568
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: The Terminator
Subject: Re: I give up! (was Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Organization: I'll Be Back!
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 21:12:51 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gilbert) writes:
>Tom Gorski ([e-mail]) wrote:
>

>Can't help you there, but... how about we conduct a letter writing
>campaign to '[e-mail]', Portals' Customer Service E-Mail
>address, complaining that one of their customers is posting off-topic
>articles that are a complete waste of bandwidth to the world at large?
>Such tactics have recently been successful in other groups for reining
>in similar nuisance posters.  Even a cursory glance through the back-
>articles in this group would easily support such a contention.
>--
>Steve Gilbert                    ([e-mail])


Never mind this stuff John. This guy is cruel...

I TOOK CARE OF HIM.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Space Aliens Eat Human Feces
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 16:53:44 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 5

Dear Folks: Hi. I have decided that I am going to start posting in this format.
I hope you like the results.

Garrett

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Null Space
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 16:54:59 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 6

Dear Ones: Please don't be confused. I thought you might like to know.
In case you were wondering Chris, the triquarter is in the mail. You
will get it tomorrow.

Garrett

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12571 alt.conspiracy:21751
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Global Deception Conference
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: William Cooper, Cover-ups
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 23:10:36 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
>Is anybody going to the Global Deception Conference being held at
>Wembley Arena on Saturady 9th and Sunday 10th January??
>
>There is a weird mix of things. The speakers include :
>
>    Eustace Mullins - who is described as the world's leading conspiricy
>                      historian

   More accurately described as "the world's leading anti-Semite".

>
>        William Cooper    - well known in UFO circles, described as
>                            the world's top specialist on the inner
>                            workings of the New World Order

   Promoter of zany paranoid theories about the "Illuminati", and every
   goofy conspiracy you can imagine.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
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From: [e-mail] (Charlie Hattendorf)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 23:56:37 GMT
Lines: 62

[e-mail] (Chris Barrus) writes:


>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>   Subject: Mitchell Caverns and Dorn Underground Cavern.

<LOTS DELETED>

>This story is nothing new.  Check out any good book on the local history on
>the Mojave Desert and look for references to Crystal Cave.  It's mentioned
>in most of the "lost mine" stories.  Also as a point of information, this
>site is not between Barstow and Needles, but between Barstow and Searchlight,
>NV.  After finding the "river of gold" Dorn (I can't verify the name right
>now) blew up the entrance himself so others couldn't find it.  He couldn't
>raise the money for further development and thus end of story.  Another
>company owns the site currently and is not disclosing any more information.
>File it somewhere with the Oak Island stuff.
>===================================

>   realize that more UFO are seen in this area than any other place I have even
>   been in.

>===================================
>No more than any other area.  I've been camping and hiking around in the
>Mojave for 11 years and haven't seen anything that I would consider to be
>"unidentified."  Bear in mind also that the 29 Palms Marine Station, Ft. Irwin,
>China Lake Naval Station, and Nellis AFB are all in the area and conduct
>weapons testing.
>===================================

>     A US government ownes a cavern that takes people into it  and is called
>   Mitchell Caverns and it is in that general area.

>===================================
>This is incorrect.  Mitchell Caverns is a state park and thus under the
>jurisdiction of the State of California.  The East Mojave Scenic Area
>is under Federal control.  BLM takes care of everything else.  Also, Mitchell
>Caverns is about 35 air miles (50 by road) away from the Crystal Caverns
>site.  I've been inside Mitchell Caverns and haven't seen anything too out
>of the ordinary.
>==================================

>     My friend Marge Bell used to live just south of the filling station at

>Hey, that's great......

>Chris
>--
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Chris Barrus - P.O. Box 5115 - Irvine - CA - 92716 - [e-mail]

>           Sacred cows make the best hamburger - Abbie Hoffman
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the update, Chris....

*    Charlie Hattendorf       Realtime Computer support -       /|            *
* Technical Representative         While you wait!             /-|MIGA works. *
*  619-939-9252 NWC/ECRD    "Build a system any fool can use, and only a fool *
* internet: [e-mail]    would want to use it" Murphy's corollaries *
* views expressed are mine(d) alone.     "There's AU in 'dem 'thar hills..."  *
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13531 alt.alien.visitors:12573
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From: [e-mail] (Charlie Hattendorf)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 00:08:08 GMT
Lines: 35

[e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Barrus) writes:
>>

>>No more than any other area.  I've been camping and hiking around in the
>>Mojave for 11 years and haven't seen anything that I would consider to be
>>"unidentified."  Bear in mind also that the 29 Palms Marine Station, Ft. Irwin,
>>China Lake Naval Station, and Nellis AFB are all in the area and conduct
>>weapons testing.


>Bear in mind that China Lake and Nellis are full of underground bases that
>local construction workers are reporting sightings of aliens working with
>scientists at the lower levels.

>Source: 2020 Group, Michael Lindemann - Several eyewitness reports were
>broadcast (the individuals themselves were taped) on KPFA Berkeley radio
>station.

>jeff-


Jeff, being as I work at China Lake I would like more info on the 2020
Group, Michael Lindemann et al.... I suppose I could contact KPFA
for transcripts, do you know of any other source? Needless to say, I
have not encountered the underground bases/alien types!
P.S. Of course my partner, who I share an office with, has been acting
a little strange lately!

*    Charlie Hattendorf       Realtime Computer support -       /|            *
* Technical Representative         While you wait!             /-|MIGA works. *
*  619-939-9252 NWC/ECRD    "Build a system any fool can use, and only a fool *
* internet: [e-mail]    would want to use it" Murphy's corollaries *
* views expressed are mine(d) alone.     "There's AU in 'dem 'thar hills..."  *
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: i have a question (SO DO I !!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 11:32:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Andre Eichner ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Hello sorgatz!

> Wednesday January 06 1993, sorgatz writes to All:

>  >> Dear Folks: I should have stated that the man was one armed (he had one
>  >> arm missing) in my last postings. The planet Venus is a very hot place
>  >> and not hospitable to humans in the third dimension, but in the 4th
>  >> dimension it is quite a nice place. Humans can visit there is their
>  >> astral form and the space people can change a human's molecturlar
>  >> structure so that we can exist there also. It takes about a two week
>  >> conditioning period. John Winston.

>  s>  Aw Jeez...Winston...do you make this stuff up as you go or do you have a
>  s> script writer run it up for you?? Just how, exactly, do you know this? I
>  s> can't imagine a means (enclosures aside) of getting human life to survive
>  s> the environment of Venus. 600+ degrees, poisonous atmosphere...c'mon..get
>  s> real! "The Space People"...you sound as silly as George Adamski. Where's
>  s> your proof? Got *anything* to back this twaddle up?

> John's information is correct! The 4th dimension is a light dimension and quite different from the 3rd (physical) dimension. Only the earth has beings in the physical dimension, some other planets in solar system hast beings on 4th and higher light dimensions including the sun (YES!)!

>   Put your limitations of your consciousness away and you can understand!
>   And you can comunicate with beings from other dimensions, too!
>   It's very interesting and a wonderfull experience.
>   The live in the universe is love and light and joy...

> Belive it or not... the time comes where you can't look away! Soon!

> Galactic greetings
>    Andre

WRONG! The fourth dimension is time, although I do grant you that there is a
theory that you can travel backwards and forwards in time by travelling at the
speed of light, but since no machine on earth has broken the speed of light this
cannot be proven.

The Cursor
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Jan 93 11:51:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
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Steve Gamble x3293 ([e-mail]) wrote:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
> > I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
> > some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
> >
> >
> > 3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
> > is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
> > claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two).

>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> This sounds interesting. I have not heard the claim that Tim Good has seen
> 'Greys' himself before. Can you provide a reference?

> Thanks,

> Steve

In a radio interview with Nicky Cambell he said that he had heard that there
are aliens in New York that are very telepathic, so he decided to test this
theory. What he did was sit down in the foyer of a New York hotel and started
repeating in his mind something along the lines of "if any extraterrestial
beings can pick up this message, please can to this hotel". After about half an
hour, a gentleman with very grey skin sat down next to him in the foyer, so Tim
said in his mind "if you are an extraterrestial being, rub the side of your nose
with you right index finger". Just as soon as he had thought this, the man did
exactly that, and did so for quite some time. Tim didn't know what else to do so
he left it at that. The description of the man he gave was greyish skin and eyes
that had larger pupils than usual, but dressed in a smart suit.

    In Tim's book "Alien Liaisons" he recounted that while getting help from
Bob Oeschler (not sure if spelling is correct, pronounced "esh-ler"), Bob told
him a story that happened soon after Bob Lazar was caught taking him and some
other people to Area 51 to watch some UFO flight tests. Bob was at a bar with
his girlfriend, his mind was suddenly filled with panic and hitherto forgotten
memories. He looked around the bar and saw this grey gentleman staring at him.
Bob pointed at him and yelled to his girlfriend "that's him! That's him!" and
the gentleman went out of the bar. Bob's girlfriend then went after the
gentleman and when she caught up with him, he looked at her and she suddenly
wanted to leave him alone.

    Both of the gentleman had grey skin and eyes with larger than usual
pupils and telepathic powers. Wether these are "Greys" or some other race of
alien I don't know. Hope that helps.

The Cursor.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Message to the "Greys"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: ETs
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 16:20:29 GMT
Lines: 25



        MESSAGE TO "THE GREYS" (OR OTHER ETs WILLING TO COMMUNICATE)

Greetings.

I apologise for the epithet, maybe you can supply us with a better one?

I am assuming that you have full access to our communications networks and
that you even keep an eye on this newsgroup.

Would you be prepared to communicate with us through this medium?

I think it might help a lot if you could answer a few questions. You can of
course select which questions you answer. Otherwise would you be prepared to
make a statement?

It would also be of advantage if you could reply in some way that can't be
faked by terrestrials, but I don't know all the possibilities.

Thank you in advance.               Paul.


Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Subject: =={ Unplastic News #8 }==
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 03:16:35 GMT
Lines: 1

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12578 alt.religion.kibology:5728
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Bigfoot Is Back.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 04:45:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.poochky.whereareyou
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>  ...The female beast "looked incredibly human.

You found my wife!! Thank you, thank you. xo xo xo !!

> " She stood 7 teet tall and smelled "just like a jungle animal." Her legs
> looked like "coiled springs: and her gigantic hands looked strong enough
> "to choke a mountain lion."

That's her, we used to play basketball together, before she
was abducted.

>   "The huge figure was covered with ash-grey hair, was female,"

Well, she has been gone for some time. Before her abduction(two
years ago?), her hair was a soft gentle brown or chestnut.

>  There were bald patches on her body, revealing a gray, coarse skin,
> and sores from scratching.

Oh God!! What have those fiends done to my poochky??

>  Her breasts were relatively small but her face
> was what really stood out. Itt conveyed a simple intelligence,
> which was later born out by a psychic

She is(was)quite intelligent thank you. Her breasts were big
as beach balls, and her face...ahh, her face, like that of chiseled
granite.  And she could fart like a tuba section echoing in the clear
crisp quiet of the Swiss alps!!

How can I contact her?? Do you know approximately where in Wisconsin?
A phone number? The kids are anxious to re-unite, any leads?? Help
bring us back together.

Thanks aload,

Lonely and longing for my poochky-
Xref: icaen alt.flame:49315 alt.religion.scientology:3959 alt.alien.visitors:12579 talk.bizarre:88579
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From: [e-mail] (Anthony Datri)
Subject: Re: HAY U GUYS R ALL LUZERZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NeTnEwS)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lovecraft.siemens.com
Organization: Siemens Corporate Research, Princeton (Plainsboro), NJ
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 17:48:27 GMT
Lines: 7

>Look, guys, I just caught me a frosh!  Mail the man a Jargon file!

Naw, then we'd have people who *aren't* dwarves saying "Frotz! Moby lossage!"
to empty coke machines.
--

======================================================================8--<
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13533 alt.alien.visitors:12580
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Date: 14 Jan 1993 00:39:25 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (General Access) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
Bla bla bla....
>>The End.
>>John Winston.,
>
>
>what does this guy take?  DMA??

"I think he did a little too much LDS in the sixties " {Kirk}
or
He's a dis-information agent.

There my two favorites.
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 04:17:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 39


    [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
    1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have
    frequently come accross cattle mutilations. This is when
    cattle have parts of their bodies cut out very precisely and
    all their blood drained out of them. When scientists examined
    these mutilated bodies, not a single trace of blood was found
    either in the body or on the ground around the body. What I
    want to know is it possible to recreate this effect on earth?

... I suspect its possible, provided you do it very carefully
elsewhere (with a lot more than a pocket knife), and then deposit the
bloodless carcass (by air, so as to avoid tire-tracks, footprints,
etc.) where it will be eventually found.  I have not read too heavily
into CM's; what is the typical status of the bone marrow?

     2) Crop circles. All are hoaxes. Speaking as a hoaxer myself,
    I've found that the "experts" cannot tell a natural circle
    from a manmade one, so any research would be pointless.

... a curious paragraph.  In the first sentence you say all are
hoaxes, but then in the second you refer to "natural" ones.  No
offense, sir, but you are one of the reasons that "any research would
be pointless."  Disinformation comes in many forms, and from many
sources -- including, apparently, yourself.

    3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth
    got their names is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter
    since some respected UFOlogists claim to have seen them (Tim
    Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two). I mean, the Centaurians
    from Alpha Centauri, I ask you! (For those that don't know, AC
    is a star, not a planet).

... perhaps they were named, like many things, by somebody, and the
name caught on.  Names are often somewhat inaccurate - naming our
planet "Earth" is pretty silly, for instance, since it mostly isn't -
nothing to warrant such passion, surely.

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Space Aliens Eat Human Feces
Date: 14 Jan 1993 07:29:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Garrett:

Are you simply deranged, or do you just want us to view less criti-
cally the other disruptive, troubled creatures that occasionally
smear their bizarre scribblings across this board?
--
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From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Null Space
Date: 14 Jan 1993 07:32:34 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Whoa --

Let's keep sharp objects away from this one!

(I begin to see how wasting bandwidth might be fun for some people.)
--
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12584 alt.noise:52
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Null Space
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology,misc.test
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 07:51:37 GMT
Lines: 996

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem) writes:
>
>(I begin to see how wasting bandwidth might be fun for some people.)

What is bandwidth and how can I waste it?

                        -- K.

A REALLY NEAT .SIGNATURE FOLLOWS, PRESS "NO" IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE IT !!!111

^ L


 .SIGNATURE UNDER CONSTRUCTION....... LAST REVISED 5/12/1990 11:02:32 PM
                                      AND ALSO LAST REVISED 5/22/90 11:27:59 PM
                                      AND 8/22/1990 10:03:16 PM TOO
                                      AND 8/25/90 01:57:08 PM
                                      AND 11/11/90 12:35:53 AM <-- LAST TIME!!
                                      (WOW, FOUR 1'S IN A ROW!!!!)
                                      AND 7/8/91 2:06:03 AM <-- LATE NIGHT!!
                                     AND 9/6/91 2:51:26AM <--- LATER!!!
                                      AND 2/9/91^H^H92 4:25:43AM <--- WOW!!!!
                                      AND 7/8/92 1:58:59AM <-- CALL IT 2!!!
                           AND 7/31/92 1:27:49AM <-- JUST FOR ONE NEW LINE!!!!
                           NOT COUNTING THE ABOVE ONE OF COURSE!!!!!!!!
                           AND 12:58:53 9/11/92 FOR ONE MORE!!! NOW IT'S DONE!!!!
                                      AND 9/25/92 1:24:33AM <-- AGAIN!!!
                                      AND 9.29.92 2L37L48AM
                                      AND 10/6/92 3:18:31AM <-- LATE BEDTIME HUH !!!!
                                      COPYRIGHT (C) COPYR.1988,1990,1989,1992
                                      ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
                                      TODOS LOS DERECHOS RESERVADOS!!!
                                      THIS POSTING MAY NOT BE REPORDUCED IN ANY
                                      FORM WITHOUT MY WRITTEN PERMISSION
                                      OR SOLD FOR MONETARY FINANCIAL PROFIT.
                                      AND 6/13/92 3:45:26PM <-- FRI THE 13TH !!!


I WROTE IT ALL BY MYSELF BUT THANKS TO MARK AND JASON DOMINUS, AND TO MATHEW
WHOSE LAST NAME I FORGOT!!!  AND ALL THOSE AUSSIES NAMED "IAIN"!!!

I DIDN'T MAKE ANY SPELLING ERRERS SO
  YOU CAN'T POST THIS SIGNATURE TO
        ALT.FAN.WARLORD!!!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
^L
                      THIS IS YOUR BRAIN.
                             ___
                            /(()\
                            \__\|


                  THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON THE INTERNET.
                             ___    +-----+
                            /(()\   | VAX |
                            \__\|===+_____+
^L

               ____
              /    \__
  |\         /    @   \
  \ \_______|    \  .:|>     "Dogs aren't ALLOWED?   WAAAAAAH!"
   \      ##|    | \__/
    |    ####\__/   \                         -- Spot
    /  /  ##       \|
   /  /__________\  \
   L_JJ           \__JJ


     S   C   R   A   T   C   H        A   N   D       S   N   I   F   F

     to enjoy the aromatic aroma of beautiful downtown schenectady !!!!
_____________________________________________________________________________
james "kibo" parry, 151 tremont st #8u, boston ma 02111 <- not schenectady.
[e-mail]           _________________________________________________
[e-mail]@uunet.COM    / Kibology    /  Anything I say is my opinion,
[e-mail]@bitnet.COM  is better! /   and is the opposite of Xibo's.
__________________________/_____________/_____________________________________
"All colors are arbitrary." --Carl Sagan   /   Bozos use anything but emacs!
__________________________________________/___________________________________
Wacky, wild, Kibo style! / You're allowed.  (Unless you don't want to be...
________________________/_ you are also allowed to not be allowed.) _________
I never said I wasn't a bozo. /____________________________________/_Hi mom!_
_____________________________/  Life is silly but should be taken seriously.
Some days you    / Klods * /    TV is evil and should be destroyed.  Really.
just can't get  /   for   /__________________________________________________
rid of a bomb. /   klods /  Moisten needle before inserting Taiwan. /  298R
______________/_________/__________________________________________/_________
* Note: "Klods for Klods" is the motto of Lego(tm) blocks in Lego's native
Denmark, where they speak Danish.  It means "Block by block".  Neat, huh????
_____________________________________________________________________________
You're reading my .signature file.  /  COMMODORE 64S RULE THE WORLD !!!!!!!!!
___________________________________/_________________________________________
"I'm Bozo, the world's most famous clown!" -- the world's most famous clown
_____________________________________________________________________________
I've read all of Kurt Vonnegut Junior's books and my favorite is "Breakfast
Of Champions", my second favorite is "Chariots Of The Gods". I love them all.
My other favorite author is Philip K. Dick who wrote "Do Androids Dream Of
Sheep?", "Clams Of The Alphane Moon", "OBIK", "Man In The Castle", and "Total
Recall"!  Oh, and Stephen King is absolutely the best too!  And Derrida!
_____________________________________________________________________________
If it doesn't say PURINA, /                     /  Bart Simpson and Charlie
bury it in the yard!     /      BYTE ME!       /   Brown are both GIRLS!
________________________/_____________________/______________________________
THIS ENTIRE MESSAGE IS COPYRIGHTED (C)1989/90 MCMLXXXIX/MCMLXL BY JAMES "KIBO"
PARRY AND MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED, SOLD, READ, PRINTED, OR REPLIED TO WITHOUT
MY EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION.  HE IS SERIOUS AND WILL SUE YOUR PANTS OFF.
_____________________________________________________________________________D
|| _______________________________________________________________________ ||I
|| ||                                                                   || ||S
|| ||------>        I'M NOT BIFF !!!!!! HE'S NOT ME !!!!!!!      <------|| ||C
++-++-------------------------------------------------------------------++-+|L
|| ||------>        BIFF IS TOO OBNOXIOUS TO BE ME !!!!!!!!      <------|| ||A
|| ||------>        ALSO HIS .SIGNATURE IS LONGER !!!!!!!!!      <------|| ||I
|| ||___________________________________________________________________|| ||M
||_________________________________________________________________________||E
_____________________________________________________________________________R
"BOZE NOSE BOOKS!" -- Bozo, The World's Most Famous Clown  /    QUAIL SUCKS
__________________________________________________________/__________________
                          /
Orwell was an optimist.  /  "There is infinite hope, but not for us." - Kafka
________________________/____________________________________________________
Join the Kibo Fan Club!  Send lots of money to the address above, RIGHT NOW!
_____________________________________________________________________________
All generalizations stink.  /  Kibology is *NOT* Satanism!  /  Ollie for prez
___________________________/_______________________________/_________________
DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY!  /   What's fahefergnugen?  /   QUAIL STILL SUCKS! ! !
_______________________/__________________________/__________________________
"The secret word is... SIL!  Now you all know what to do whenever anybody
 says the secret word, right?  SCREAM REAL LOUD!"  -- Pee Wee Herman
_____________________________________________________________________________
If I said anything to offend anyone in this message, I'm sorry and didn't
mean to hurt your feelings.  ________________________________________________
____________________________/  "Losing our marbles for the last 23 years"
I hope you're enjoying     /   I'm gonna be 24 soon!  My birthday is July 13,
reading this posting...   /    send presents!  The day before Bastille Day!
_________________________/___________________________________________________
If Lambada is the forbidden dance, why did they make a movie about it?
_____________________________________________________________________________
Hi [e-mail]!  /  You are here  X  /  What's Peewee Herman's favorite
_________________/___________________/   baseball team?  THE EXPOS!
Garrison Keillor is my hero         /                       (rec.humor.funny)
___________________________________/_________________________________________
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here!"  -- STAR TREK
_____________________________________________________________________________
"SIL!"  "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
_____________________________________________________________________________
There's a mouse in my apartment right now while I'm typing this.  Isn't
that an incredible coincidence!  Have you ever been using this bboard while
a mouse was in your room.  Now I have.........?
_____________________________________________________________________________
Anyone who thinks anyone else should be shot should be shot; the NRA is a
bunch of bozos just like the Democrats AND Republicans AND Williard Scott.
Kill the Fascists and Communists and all the other nuts too.  Kill 'em all!
_____________________________________________________________________________
"I'm Batman!" -- BATMAN THE MOVIE   /  This space intentionally left blank.
(THE BEST MOVIE IN THE WORLD!!!!)  /
__________________________________/__________________________________________
Elvis lives.  /  "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay..." --MONTY PYTHON  /  Hug me
_____________/_____________________________________________________/_________
Did I spell anything wrong? If so, please tell me so I can post a correction.
_____________________________________________________________________________
  |\     My favorite PostScript font is Chicago!  Times Roman is just a cheap
--- \  ripoff of the real New York.  And you don't even have to be in Chicago
___ /  to use Chicago!  I printed my whole resume in 36pt Chicago Bold Shadow!
__|/_________________________________________________________________________
|  "Beauty and the Beast" may be cancelled, but it lives on forever in our  |
|  hearts and minds and hearts!  It will live forever even though it's dead!|
|___________________________________________________________________________|
Can I have a cookie?  / The Kibology Center is a non-non-profit arm of the
_____________________/  National Association for Kibological Awareness(NAKA).
I'M 100% FLAMEPROOF /________________________________________________________
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Harry Graber, age 11, is dying of a fatal disease which will eventually kill
him.  Before he dies, he would like to be in the "Guinness" Book of "Records"
for receiving the most postcards in the mail.  Please send him lots of
postcards at the below address:

              Kibo, PO Box 722, Boston MA 02116-0722 (USA)

Although he is very ill and only barely clinging to life, he gets thousands
of postcards a day from people like you.  He writes back, personally, to
each and every single one.  Amazingly, everyone who writes to Harry recieves
a year of good luck afterwards!  Mrs. Bertha Briggs of Poughkeepsie, NY
recently wrote to Harry and then won the lottery the very next day--AND her
dog was cured of cancer!  Plus, if you write now, Harry will send you
his miracle POSTCARD DIET which will allow you to lose 100 pounds a week!

                            THIS IS NOT A SCAM!
                           This service is FREE!
               Please enclose $14.95 for postage and handling.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

HANDY "TWIN PEEKS" CHART          [murder]<-->[LAURA]<--/-->[Bob]<--["Bob"]
                                              |     ^         |        ^
This is fun to read even if you haven't       v     v         v        |
seen the series.  I like my chart, and    [David   [That FBI guy]   ["J.R."]
I've never seen the show!                 Lynch]         ^             ^
                                         /               |             |
                                        v             [donuts]    [Bobby in
[the log lady]<->[flouridation]-->["Eraserheads"]        =       the shower]
 ^         ^                                           [sex]          |
 |         |     /->[Monty Python's Flying Circles]                   v
[bag     [lumber-                                             /->[Ted Bundy]
ladies]   jacks]<--["RoboJox"]<->[VW]<->[FOX]-->[Al&Peg Bundy]
  ^         |                             ^                   \->[Children]
  |         v                             |
[the dog-faced boy]-->[Laura's<-/->[the Simpsons]<--[Life in Hell]<--[UseNet]
                     evil twin]                                         |
                                                                        v
And remember, the name of the show is a breast metaphor.   [alt.tv.twin.peeks]
                                        ^    ^                |          ^
                                       /     |                v          |
[Mike Douglas]=[Douglas firs]-->[breasts]   [drumsticks]  [rmgroups] /->[logs]
      |                      \______________________________________/    ^
      v                                                                  |
  [Albert]<--/-->[furry white rats]-->[green rats]-->[traffic   [the log lady]
     ^                                                lights]     (here too!)
     |                         [walk with fire me]--->  ^             ^
 [Layland]<-->[Pinky Lee]                               |             |
                               [Herve Villachaise]<--[tattoos]     ["Bob"]

_____________________________________________________________________________
My favroite sci-fi/fantasy short story is  /  VOTE NIXON  / The SubGenius
"The Eye of Argon" by L. Ron Hubbard!     /     IN 1992  /  must wear slacks!
_________________________________________/______________/____________________
Best Skeleton Joke Ever:   "What do you call fish bones?"  "Skele-tuna!" :-)
_____________________________________________________________________________
I spell things the way I want, since William Safire is too wimpy to stop me!
_____________________________________________________________________________
"The medium is the message!"  -- Marshall Mike Luhan  /  I'm a lumberjack...
_____________________________________________________/_______________________
I know the Green Golfball Joke!  I'd post it here but BitNet doesn't allow
R-rated jokes to be posted here so I won't post it!  That's a violation of
your unconstitutional rights and you should complain to your sysop!
_____________________________________________________________________________
MY TETRIS HIGH SCORE ON MY NINTENDO IS 999,990 -- THAT'S A WORLD RECORD!
I HAVE PHOTOS OF THE TV SCREEN TO PROVE IT!  THEY DIDN'T COME OUT THOUGH.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\\\\\\\\
 \\\\\\\\\\                                   \\    \\    \\   \\    \\
  \\\\\\\\\\                                   \\/   \\/   \\/  \\/   \\/
   \\\\\\\\\\
    \\\\\\\\\\                  AMIGA ONLY! \\    \\    \\    \\    \\   \\
     \\\\\\\\\\                              \\/   \\/   \\/   \\/   \\/  \\/
      \\\\\\\\\\                                        ___
       \\\\\\\\\\                                      /. .\
        \\\\\\\\\\                                     |\_/|
         \\\\\\\\\\                                    \___/
          \\\\\\\\\\                  /####\  /######\  ### /#####  /######\
           \\\\\\\\\\                 ##  ##  ## ## ##  ### ##      ##    ##
            \\\\\\\\\\                ##  ##  ## ## ##  ### ## ###  ##    ##
             \\\\\\\\\\       ////////######  ## ## ##  ### ## ###  ########
              \\\\\\\\\\     //////// ##  ##  ## ## ##  ### \#####  ##    ##
               \\\\\\\\\\   ////////
                \\\\\\\\\\ ////////   /#####  ###   ### #####\  ### ###
                 \\\\\\\\\////////    ##      ##     ## ##  ##  ##   ## GRAFIX
                  \\\\\\\////////     ## ###  ##     ## ######\ ##   ##
                   \\\\\////////      ##  ##  ##     ## ##   ## ##   ## WIZARD
                    \\\////////       \#####  \#######/ ##   ## \#####/
_____________________________________________________________________________
 _______________                     |  __        _    ____
/               \   |\/\/\/|  r      |  |\\    | | \  / ,__\       AIR SUPPLY
|  "Have a cow, |__ | @  @ |  a      |  ||\\   | |_/  \ |       _  _  |
|      man!"     /  |   '  |  d      |  || \\  | | \   \\   | | |\ |\ |  \ /
\_______________/   | \___/   i      |  ||__\\      \   \\  | | |/ |/ |   |
                    |  |      c  d   |  ||___\\      \   \\ \_/ |  |  |__ |
                              a  u   |  ||    \\     \\__//     |  |      |
as seen on           BART     l  d   |                \__/
   FOX!            SIMPSON       e   |  THE MOST AWESOME HEAVY METAL BAND !!!
_____________________________________|_______________________________________
^L
^L

                 #     #  ####   #    #   #  #####   ######
                  #   #  # ,, #  #    #   #  #    #  #
                   # #   #    #  #    #  #   #    #  #####
                    #    #\__/#  #    #      #####   #
                    #    #    #  #    #      #   #   #
                    #     ####    ####       #    #  ######

           ##    #       #        ####   #    #  ######  ####    ##
          #  #   #       #       # oo #  #    #  #       #   #   ##
         #    #  #       #       #    #  #    #  #####   #    #  ##
         ######  #       #       #\__/#  # ## #  #       #    #  ##
         #    #  #       #       #    #  ##  ##  #       #   #
         #    #  ######  ######   ####   #    #  ######  ####    ##

                        HAVE A NICE DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PLEASE POST YOUR REPLIES TO THIS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY NET ADDRESS IS!
ALSO PLEASE CROSS-POST TO LOTS OF GROUPS SINCE IT MIGHT NOT BE A GROUP I READ!

[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]





   This blank region of empty space is a hollow void that adds lines to the
                           length of this .signature's physical size.





[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]---[]
                *****   ___   ___      _________
                  *    /   \ /   \    | _______ |
                  *   |     V     |   | | * * | |     HELP ME NAME MY
                  *    \         /    | |_____| |     APPLE SE/30 WITH
                  *      \     /      |    ===  |     40MB MEGABYTE DRIVE
                  *        \ /        |_________|
                *****       v          |||||||||

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) <--- Aren't these cute?
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) <--- I was the one who
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) <--- invented them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  |\
        ---*--   |  \
    -"""      \__|   \
   /   : Qld  :  TAS  \
  /    :........       \
 ' SA  : AA    :.......*|   x = Schenectady NY USA
 \     :     * :NSW    /
  \*   :/""""""\`..x */
   ----'     VIC\ *`./
                 """"
                 \"""/
                NT\*/

Dan Quayle is Howdy Doody!  (And Susan Sontag is the Bride of Frankenstein!)
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    S  T  O  P      C  A  S  T  I  N  G      P  O  R  O  S  I  T  Y        |
+____________________________________________________________________________+
I've been to Cheers(TM) in downtown Boston and I have a T-Shirt that says
Cheers(TM) and the official Cheers(TM) Plastic Souvenir Shopping Bag!
Hey, is Ted Danson really as bald as they say?  He couldn't be, his hair's
fluffy, and wigs can't be fluffy!  William Shatner wears a toupee though,
I bet you didn't know that!  I hope I never go bald.  I'd lose my sex appeal.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Fats Loves Madelyn. / Honk if you hate bumper stickers that say "Honk if ..."
___________________/_________________________________________________________
"We're like gerbils.  We're in a cage running around and around."
                                                                -- Tom Brokaw
_____________________________________________________________________________
"OH WHAT A ZINGER!!!" -- CHRIS ELIOT  / "Married With Children" is the best
                         GET A LIFE  /  TV show ever!  Ted is the greatest!
_____________________________________/_______________________________________
Fly KLM!   /    Did you hear that PeeWee Herman was arrested for masterbating?
__________/____ Really!______________________________________________________
Dana Hersey is Willie Whistle in addition to hosting The Movie Loft (channel 6)
_____________________________________________________________________________
Read alt.exploding.kibo, the group about exploding kibo! /    NO FATE
________________________________________________________/
I put microwave coffee in the Tater Twister and almost /    KNOW FUTURE
went back in time!  -- Steven Wright (Emerson alumnus)/
_____________________________________________________/    NO DOGS ALLOWED
"NOT!" -- WAYNE'S WORLD  / "The Stevemeisterooski!" /
________________________/__________________________/_________POOR SPOT______

"If I had MY OWN NETWORK, it would be on ALL the TIME.  It would be EDUCATIONAL,
like COSMOS and NOVA, but not so DRY.  It would best be seen on HIGH-definition
TELEVISION.  And every DAY we'd READ from the BOOK of CHER, because when you
READ from the BOOK of CHER, it doesn't MATTER if you UNDERSTAND... it's the ACT
that MATTERS.  MY network would be METAphysical, paraNORMAL, and EXTRAORDINARILY
ORDINARY.  It would COMPEL you to RELAX and read `MADAME BOVARY', LOOK into the
MOUTHS of VOLCANOES and LEARN to make RISOTTO... It would have a LINEAR BUILD
and ARISTOTELIAN LINES... MY network would be both JARRING and AVANT-GARDE...
with just a TOUCH of BRIAN DENNEHY.  MY network would not promote WAR, WASTE,
DOUBT or ANXIETY, and would pose the question... What was MICHELLE PFEIFFER
doing in `Grease 2'?"  -- Sean E. Coates, the "E!" poster child

**************************(.signature continued)*******************************

   HOW MANY POSTS A DAY I MADE LAST WEEK
   ***************************************************************************
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   **                        W*T        T*W*T        T*WT                   **
   *            W*T*F    M*T*   *F     *     F     M*    *F     M            *
   *          T*    *    *       *     *     *     *      *     *            *
   *          *      *   *        *   M       *   *        *   *             *
   *          *      *   *        *   *       *   *        *   *             *
   *         *       *  *         *  *        *   *        *   *             *
   **        *        * *          * *         * *          * *             **
   *         M        S*S          SS          S*S          S*S              *
   *        *                                                                *
   *       S                                                                 *
   *         ^Labor Day            ^Sep 14                  ^Sep 28          *
   *                                                                         *
   *                  *                 *                 *                  *
   240 -x- 280  0 -y- 15000***************************************************

*******************************************************************************
MY TEN FAVORITE QUOTES: Broad-mindedness, n.: The result of flattening high-
mindedness out.  There is a certain impertinence in allowing oneself to be
burned for an opinion. All the good ones are taken.  "Microwave oven?  Whaddya
mean, it's a microwave oven? I've been watching Channel 4 on the thing for two
weeks."  Murphy was an optimist. Love means having to say you're sorry every
five minutes. No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats --
approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less. Get forgiveness now --
tomorrow you may no longer feel guilty. Commitment can be illustrated by a
breakfast of ham and eggs. The chicken was involved, the pig was committed.
You are here ------> * But you're not all there.  Kirkland, Illinois, law
forbids bees to fly over the village or through any of its streets.  Love and
scandal are the best sweeteners of tea.  A clairvoyant is a person, commonly a
woman, who has the power of seeing that  which is invisible to her patron --
namely, that he is a blockhead.  A multi-day event on public television, used
to raise money so  you won't have to watch commercials.  Try to get all of
your posthumous medals in advance.  The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the
needs of an expanding  bureaucracy.  The intelligence of any discussion
diminishes with the square of the number of participants.  The hearing ear is
always found close to the speaking tongue, a custom  whereof the memory of man
runneth not howsomever to the contrary,  nohow.  Good advice is something a
man gives when he is too old to set a bad  example.  -- La Rouchefoucauld
Professor Gorden Newell threw another shutout in last week's Chem. Eng. 130
midterm.  Once again no student received a single point on  his exam.  Newell
has now tossed 5 shutouts this quarter.  Newell's  earned exam average has now
dropped to a phenomenal 30%"Consequences, Schmonsequences, as long as I'm
rich." -- "Ali Baba Bunny" [1957, Chuck Jones]  Marriage is the only adventure
open to the cowardly.  -- Voltaire  The First Rule of Program Optimization:
Don't do it.  The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!):
Don't do it yet.  -- Michael Jackson Goldenstern's Rules:  (1) Always hire a
rich attorney  (2) Never buy from a rich salesman.  The problem ... is that we
have run out of dinosaurs to form oil with.  Scientists working for the
Department of Energy have tried to form oil  using other animals; they've
piled thousands of tons of sand and Middle  Eastern countries on top of cows,
raccoons, haddock, laboratory rats,  etc., but so far all they have managed to
do is run up an enormous  bulldozer-rental bill and anger a lot of Middle
Eastern persons.  None  of the animals turned into oil, although most of the
laboratory rats  developed cancer.  -- Dave Barry, "Postpetroleum Guzzler"  If
a 6600 used paper tape instead of core memory, it would use up tape  at about
30 miles/second. -- Grishman, Assembly Language Programming Peanut Blossoms  4
cups sugar  16 tbsp. milk  4 cups brown sugar  4 tsp. vanilla  4 cups
shortening  14 cups flour  8 eggs  4 tsp. soda  4 cups peanut butter  4 tsp.
salt  Shape dough into balls.  Roll in sugar and bake on ungreased cookie
sheet at 375 F. for 10-12 minutes.  Immediately top each cookie with a
Hershey's kiss or star pressing down firmly to crack cookie.  Makes a  hell of
a lot.  Gyroscope, n.:  A wheel or disk mounted to spin rapidly about an axis
and also  free to rotate about one or both of two axes perpendicular to  each
other and the axis of spin so that a rotation of one of  the two mutually
perpendicular axes results from application of  torque to the other when the
wheel is spinning and so that the  entire apparatus offers considerable
opposition depending on  the angular momentum to any torque that would change
the direction of the axis of spin.  -- Webster's Seventh New Collegiate
Dictionary.  In fifteen minutes, everyone will be famous. -- Andy Warhol

_______________________________________________________________________________


                      .--------------.
                 .---'  o        .    `---.
              .-'    .    O  .         .   `-.
           .-'     @@@@@@       .             `-.
         .'@@   @@@@@@@@@@@       @@@@@@@   .    `.
       .'@@@  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@     @@@@@@@@@         `.
      /@@@  o @@@@@@@@@@@@@@     @@@@@@@@@     O     \
     /        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@  @   @@@@@@@@@ @@     .  \
    /@  o      @@@@@@@@@@@   .  @@  @@@@@@@@@@@     @@ \
   /@@@      .   @@@@@@ o       @  @@@@@@@@@@@@@ o @@@@ \
  /@@@@@                  @ .      @@@@@@@@@@@@@@  @@@@@ \
  |@@@@@    O    `.-./  .        .  @@@@@@@@@@@@@   @@@  |
 / @@@@@        --`-'       o        @@@@@@@@@@@ @@@    . \    Full Moon +
 |@ @@@@ .  @  @    `    @            @@      . @@@@@@    |     0  5:15:36
 |   @@                         o    @@   .     @@@@@@    |      Last Quarter -
 |  .     @   @ @       o              @@   o   @@@@@@.   |       7  3:55:27
 \     @    @       @       .-.       @@@@       @@@      /
  |  @    @  @              `-'     . @@@@     .    .    |
  \ .  o       @  @@@@  .              @@  .           . /
   \      @@@    @@@@@@       .                   o     /
    \    @@@@@   @@\@@    /        O          .        /
     \ o  @@@       \ \  /  __        .   .     .--.  /
      \      .     . \.-.---                   `--'  /
       `.             `-'      .                   .'
         `.    o     / | `           O     .     .'
           `-.      /  |        o             .-'
              `-.          .         .     .-'
                 `---.        .       .---'
                      `--------------'

                       I AM NOT A BOZO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^L

     ____|||||///
   /     |||||////        TERMINATOR TWO: BEST MOVIE IN THE WORLD !!!!!11
  /  __   ||    ////
 |   L|   :      ===      "Hasta la vista, baby!" -- ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER
 | |   __ : ___  =|=                                 (a personal friend)
 |    (_) :/__)   |
 |/       |      \|    <--- THE TERMINATOR
  |       .\     |
   \ \ \  :     /         I HOPE TERMINATOR THREE DOESN'T SUCK DEAD BUNNIES
    |  HHH---  |          THRU A STRAW LIKE BATMAN TWO !!!!!11
     \____:___/

"THERE IS NO BATHROOM" -- MY PAL ARNOLD, KINDERGARTEN COP

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;;;;::::;::::::::::::::

My son Herbie, age 7, needs a computer for school and I can't afford
one, would anyone like to give us one?  It would be a tax deduction for
you!  Herbie wants a Mac IIfx with a Color PostScript printer.  He needs
this by next week!  All the other kids in his class have them already!!!
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

STAR TREK RULEZ!!!       ________^_______     ============= - - - - - - - - -
                          \______ _____/\       /  /     -  -  -  -  -  -  -
Write-in to Paramount            V   \   \_____/__/_  - - - - WHOOSH! - - -
to keep them from killing Spock     )|US ENTERPRISE/ -  -  -  -  -  -  -
in their next movie!!!!              |____________/ - - - - - - - - - -

TOP TEN STAR TREK QUOTES         10) "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic."
9) "Dammit Jim!"                 8)  "Spit it out, man!"
7) "I kinna do it Captain, I have not th' power!"
6) "Where's the beef?"           5)  "They're BORN pregnant!"
4) "His BRAIN is missing!" "Oh... you noticed."
               ** send mail if you want the rest **

Majel Barett was only on STAR TREK because she was married to William Shatner.
The new STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION new series that they're making
now is too full of Yuppie bozos.  And the special effects are too good.
SHATNER COULDN'T DIRECT HIS WAY OUT OF THE BATHROOM WITH BOTH HANDS AND A MAP!

------------------------------------=-----------------------------------------
I have discovered a truly wonderful proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, but
unfortunately this .signature is too small to contain it.
-----------------------------------=----------------------------------------------
There exist no legitimate audio  tapes of me admitting to being
an  alien,  a  government   agent,   a  sexual  pervert,  or  the
camp-follower of little  grey  men  from  Zeta  Reticuli.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
I watch Nick at Nite all day!   Xibo watches stupid soap operas!
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

MY .SIGNATURE IS MORE POSTMODERN THAN YOURS!  (It's even autographed by
William S. Burroughs.  See--->?)              /
                                        \/\/. \. Burroughs
                                              /
I wish he hadn't stopped writing those Tarzan books though!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an out-of-date copy of each of the following MTS manuals: Vol. 1, 2,
5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 16, and 24.  If you want a copy, I'm selling 'em, $1 each.
I also have lots of plastic bags for five cents each!

/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\
 _________
/         \
|         |
\__\   /__/
  --| |--
   -| |-
   /| |\
/////\\\\\\
                           NUKE THE DAMN BUNNY ALREADY!!!!
   |  _
   \ /
    UU __
    ==/  \
   /\__o |
  *|__\__/
   /_ \_          "boomp boomp boomp boomp boomp..." "BOOM!!!!!!!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****        *****    *****    ****************        ******************
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*****        *****    *****    ******************    **********************
*****        *****    *****    *****       ******    ******          ******
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
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*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****     My     *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****    name    *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****     is     *****
*****       *****     *****    *****       *****     *****    short   *****
***************       *****    ***************       *****   'cause   *****
****************      *****    ****************      *****    it's    *****
*****************     *****    *****************     *****    only    *****
*****       ******    *****    *****       ******    *****    four    *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****  letters!  *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
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*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
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*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****        *****    *****            *****
*****        *****    *****    *****       ******    ******          ******
*****        *****    *****    ******************    **********************
*****        *****    *****    *****************      ********************
*****        *****    *****    ****************        ******************

AND THIS IS THE PART OF THE .SIG THAT BROKE MIKE JITTLOV'S AMIGA!!!

V guvax guvf dhbgr ol Qnir Oneel, zl snibevgr jevgre, rkcynvaf jul V
bsgra jrne zl haqrejrne ba zl urnq jura V tb gb jbex:

Nyy lbh unir gb qb gb frr gur npphenpl bs zl gurfvf vf ybbx nebhaq
lbh.  Ybbx, va cnegvphyne, ng gur crbcyr jub, yvxr lbh, ner znxvat
nirentr vapbzrf sbe qbvat nirentr wbof -- onax ivpr cerfvqragf,
vafhenapr fnyrfzna, nhqvgbef, frpergnevrf bs qrsrafr -- naq lbh'yy
ernyvmr gurl nyy qerff gur fnzr jnl, rffragvnyyl gur jnl gur znaardhvaf
va gur Frnef zrafjrne qrcnegzrag qerff.  Abj ybbx ng gur erny
fhpprffrf, gur crbcyr jub znxr n ybg zber zbarl guna lbh -- Rygba Wbua,
Pncgnva Xnatnebb, nalobql sebz Fnhqv Nenovn, Ovt Oveq, naq fb ba.  Gurl
nyy qerff shaal -- naq gurl nyy fhpprrq.  Ner lbh pngpuvat ba?
                -- Qnir Oneel, "Ubj gb Qerff sbe Erny Fhpprff"

TO DECODE THE FUNNIST JOKE IN THE UNIVERSE JUST PIPE THAT THROUGH "UUDECODE(1)"
_____________________________________________________________________________
R-RATED GIF FOLLOWS, PRESS N NOW!
^L

  O
(.|.)
 ).(     TIFFANY BRISSETE HAS A GREAT BOD!  WOO WOO!!!!  HUBBA HUBBA!  YOW!
( | )
 \|/


|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

fee fi fo feh.  fee fi fo feh.  fee fi fo feh.  fee fi fo feh.  fee fi fo feh.
_____________________________________________________________________________

"100% gist-free!"  -- Amy S. Brockman on Kibo's .signature.
                      Compliment... or CONSPIRACY?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

My favorite painters are Pollock, Rothko, Warhol, Dali', Miro', Tanguy,
Rockwell, Warhol, and myself.  I'm almost as good as Dali' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My least favorite musical composer is Salieri, since he was a bozo.
                               ____________________
                              /                    \
                             /                      \
             ^______________/    __       __         \______________^
             \              |   /  \     /  \        |              /
               \            |  |  o |   | o  |       |            /
                 \          |   \__/__   \__/        |          /
                   \        |      /  \              |        /
                     \      |      \__/              |      /
             BO-       \____|    __________          |____/      -ZO
                            |   / ________ \         |
                            \  | / ______ \ |        /
                             \ |/_/      \_\|       /
                              \____________________/
                                        |
                                        |
                                  \     |      /
                                   \----+-----/
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
                                        /\
                                       /  \
                                      /    \
                        _____________/      \____________ (clown shoes)


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ich bin ein .signature Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.
Don't ask what it means, just put it in your .signature, okay?

_____________________________________________________________________________
THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THIS POSTING ARE SOLELY THE AUTHORS' AND DO NOT
NECESSARILY REFLECT THOSE OF DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION, RENSSELAER POLY-
POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, PENN STATE, IBM, NASA, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, SCIENTOLOGY,
ATARI CORP., STANFORD UNIVERSITY, BITNET INC., SOFTWARE TOOL & DIE, INFOCOM,
PRODIGY, RALSTON PURINA INC., JAPAN, LYNDON LaROUCHE, THE SYSOP OF USENET,
GEORGE BUSH, THE LONDON TIMES, ORACLE CORPORATION, WILLIE WHISTLE, STAR TREK
THE NEXT GENERATION, THE HOME SHOPPING CLUB, THE HAIR CHANNEL FOR MEN, OR THE
CITY OF NEW YORK.  HOWEVER YOU CAN'T SUE ME FOR SAYING ANY OF THIS BECAUSE
IF YOU SUE ME YOU'D HAVE TO QUOTE ME IN COURT AND THEN I'D SUE YOU FOR
QUOTING THIS COPYRIGHTED (C) MESSAGE!!!  MY COUSINS ARE ALL LAWYERS !!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
******************************************************************************
* NEW drawing!                                                               *
* of a RADIK00L sword thats even BIGGER then the USS ENTERPRISE wow!         *
*                                                                            *
*                 ___                                                        *
*              /\/  /                       ====@====     /////////  ---------
*             /   _/                               ``________//              *
*            /   /                                    `------'   -------------
*           /   /                                                            *
* __===__  /   /                                                             *
*/       \/----+---------------------------------------\______               *
*|        |           XCALIBER THE DECAPITATER!!!!            \______________*
*|        |                                                   /~~~~~~~~      *
*\__====_/\---+----------------------------------------/~~~~~~               *
*          \  \                                                              *
*           \  \                                                             *
*            \  \                                                            *
*             \  \_                                                          *
*              \   \          NOTE: This isnt a hyperdermic needel !!!!!!    *
*               \   \                                                        *
*                \/\_\                                                       *
*                                                ITS SO GOOD I FRAMED IT !!!!*
******************************************************************************

aibophobia (ay' bo fo beeya): n. The fear of palindromes.

kibophobia (ki' bo fo beeya): n. The fear of Kibo.

kibophobik (ki' bo fo bik): n. The fear of Kibo's palindromes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'M STILL 100% FLAMEPROOF!   /   I'VE FALLEN AND I CAN'T GET UP!  /  HI MARK!
____________________________/____________________________________/___________
Arsenio Hall is the black Johnny Carson but Byron Allen is the black Pat Sajak!
But at least Byron Allen is funnier than Skip Stephenson or John Barbour!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
IBM's "AIX" operating system is better than "real" "UNIX" systems
because "AIX" has "man" pages that show "pictures" of each "command"!
Here's an "example", isn't this "cute"?

RM, DELETE(1,C)             AIX Commands Reference              RM, DELETE(1,C)

PURPOSE

Removes files or directories.

SYNTAX

  one of
+--------+   +------------+
| rm     |---|   +----+   |--- file ---|
| delete |   +---| -f |---+ ^        |
+--------+     ^ | -i | |   +--------+
               | | -r | |
               | | -- | |
               | | -s | |
               | +----+ |
               +--------+
____________________________________________________ \o clip and save _______
                                                     /O
                                                        <--those are scissors
                 .------------
             .--'  o     . .   `--
          .-'   .    O   .       . `
       .-'@   @@@@@@@   .  @@@@@
      /@@@  @@@@@@@@@@@   @@@@@@@   .<--- Crater Parry -- I paid $15 for it!
    ./    o @@@@@@@@@@@   @@@@@@@
    /@@  o   @@@@@@@@@@@.   @@@@@@@   O
   /@@@@   .   @@@@@@@o    @@@@@@@@@@     @
   |@@@@@               . @@@@@@@@@@@@@ o @@
  /@@@@@  O  `.-./  .      @@@@@@@@@@@@    @             Full Moon +
   | @@@@    --`-'       o     @@@@@@@@ @@@@              2 17:08:58
   |@ @@@        `    o      .  @@   . @@@@@@             Last Quarter -
   |       @@  @         .-.     @@@   @@@@@@             4 16:02:05
   \  . @        @@@     `-'   . @@@@   @@@@
     |      @@   @@@@@ .           @@   .
     \     @@@@  @\@@    /  .  O    .     o
      \  o  @@     \ \  /         .    .
       `\     .    .\.-.___   .      .   .-
          \           `-'                `-
           `-.   o   / |     o    O   .
               `-.   /     .       .    .
                  `--.       .      .--
                        `------------

          If this posting offends you, then you're a WEENERBRAIN!!!


             @@@@@@  @@  @@  @@@@@@        @@@@@@  @@  @@  @@@@@
               @@    @@  @@  @@            @@      @@@ @@  @@  @@
               @@    @@@@@@  @@@@@         @@@@@   @@@@@@  @@  @@
               @@    @@  @@  @@            @@      @@ @@@  @@  @@
               @@    @@  @@  @@@@@@        @@@@@@  @@  @@  @@@@@

             @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
             Dedicated to Gene Roddenberry, who died last year...
             @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------\__/
|     * /
|_____-/  BOSTON, MASSACHUSSETTS <-- SITE OF WORLD.COM PUBLIC ACCESS UNIX
                                     ONLY A DOLLAR A MINUTE PLUS CONNECT TIME!

          AND NO I DON'T KNOW MICHAEL DUKAKIS PERSONALLY!
^L

12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890XXXXX DON'T GO INTO THE X'S !!!!!



 ^L
 ^L
 ^L
 ^D
 ^D
 ^D
 .
 exit
 stop
 bye
 ^C
 ^Z
 !sh
 !ed
 /exit
 quit
 q
 /quit
 ~x
 help
 help stop
 !help
 logout
 $signoff
 write sysop "how do i stop this ???"
 psot
 post
 ^P^O^S^T

 this line intentionally left blank so that the following line will be #350.

 THIS IS THE THREE HUNDRED FIFTIETH LINE OF MY .SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                                the edn


P.S.:
----------
From [e-mail] Tue Jul  2 11:28:05 1991
To: James 'Kibo' Parry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Call for creation of alt.evolutionary.acceleration
From: Industrial Poet <[e-mail]>
Comments: Civilization is a momentary failure of entropy
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 91 10:55:39 BST
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

Might I suggest adding the following quote to your .signature:

"It seems like it's time to retire the length-of-sig-wasted-bandwidth flame.
The point really is, News is BIG and .signatures, even long ones, are small."
                            - Mark-Jason Dominus <[e-mail]>


mathew
----------
--
--
From [e-mail] Sat May  9 01:19:46 1992
Date: Fri, 8 May 92 22:19:07 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Steve Berlin)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  your .sig

Hi there.

Thanks for your nifty .sig.  I already got a copy from alt.fan.warlord,
but with such a wonderful work of art, you can never have too many copies,
can you?  Well, of course you can!  I mean, "Mona Lisa" is a damn good
painting, but am I going to hang it in every room in my apartment?  No!
But I digress.

Anyway, to make your .sig a bit more "user-friendly", here is an index for
it.  The numbers, of course, refer to line numbers.
I'll let someone ELSE do a table of contents.

Suggestions for index:
1)  Append it to the end of the .sig
2)  Include it as a seperate file
3)  Just delete the damn thing, log off, and watch Ren and Stimpy
or (my favorite):  append it to the end of your sig, THEN log off and
watch Ren and Stimpy.

- Stev0


13, Rot - 610-623
Address - 55-58
Autograph, Burroughs, William S. - 527-533
Child, Dying - 155-174
Copyright - 86-88
Credits - 19,20
Dedication - 781-783
Disclaimers - 22-25, 89-98, 142, 153, 216, 276, 474, 677-686, 772, 790
Drawings, ASCII:
    Bozo - 644-670
    Brain - 28-37
    Bunny, Energizer, Being Nuked - 540-556
    Check, Amiga - 223-243
    Dog - 40-48
    Enterprise - 501-506, 692-695
    Simpson, Bart, Minimalist - 245-253
    Sword - 692-709
    Terminator - 478-489
    unknown (command flow?) 736-744
    unknown (computer?) 293-300
End, The - 775-780, 831
Favorites:
    Author - 77-81
    Font - 144-146
    Heavy Metal Band - 245-253
    Movie - 137-138
    Movie - 478-489
    Painters - 641-643
    Quotes - 388-440
    Quotes, Star Trek - 507-511
    SF Short Story - 207-208
    Skeleton Joke - 210
Feh, Fee Fi Fo - 638
Font, BUA - 257-273
Font, Biggest UA - 559-609
GIF, R-Rated - 626-635
History - 2-16
Line 350 - 828
Manuals, MTS - 535-537
Map, Australia - 308-320
Map, Massachusetts - 785-788
Map, Moon 442-473, 748-771
Network, Sean Coates' - 350-362
Peeks, Twin - 176-205
Phobias - 712-716
Posts Made, Number of - 364-386
Quitting Attempts - 794-825
Quotes, Random - 57-75, 83, 84, 99-135, 140-152, 212-214, 321-348,
                 490-497, 514-525, 723-734
Scissors - 745-746
Score, Tetris - 220
Smilies - 303-305
Space, Blank - 280-291
Virus, .Sig, German - 672-674

====

Alt.alien.visitors elected me OFFICIAL Spokesman For The Planet Earth!


---------

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] signed:
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Carol Osterbrock       *   Life is too short for 4 line .sigs
>[e-mail]    *    -- well, if Kibo didn't say it, he should have
>==============================================================================


----------

                UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
                IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.

RMS told me to plug the League For Programmed Freedom in my .signature
so I did.  Join the LPF!  RMS is cool.

                     SEE BATMAN 2 !!!!
--

                        I HAVE A BLACK BELT !

--


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 01:59:08 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 8

Dear John: There are three points of light at the entrance. If you look
closely you can see your reflection on the doorknob. Please leave a message
under the door. There are reports that Satan is in there. I'd be careful,
other haven't been.

_Satar_


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13534 alt.alien.visitors:12586 sci.skeptic:36964
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Present Lives.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 02:15:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Friends: I used to phone Sister Thedra each year on her birthday
and wish her well. Last year she was too sick to come to the phone.
Thank you for being so kind to tell me that she had pasted away.
John Winton.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!dxcern!marmac2.in2p3.fr!user
From: [e-mail] (Meessen Christophe)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Centre de Physique des Particules de Marseille
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 10:21:45 GMT
Lines: 62

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M.
Humphries) wrote:
>
> 1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
> accross cattle mutilations. This is when cattle have parts of their bodies cut
> out very precisely and all their blood drained out of them. When scientists
> examined these mutilated bodies, not a single trace of blood was found either in
> the body or on the ground around the body. What I want to know is it possible to
> recreate this effect on earth?
>

I suppose you mean man made or not involving extraterrestrial intervention.

The "not a single trace of blood was found either in the body or on the
ground around the body" is not precise enough. If we take it as it's
written, it would mean cleaning the body.

I see two possible ways. Suck the blood out of the body, or wash the
circulatory system with another product.

As a biologist, I had to study some organs on rats. In summary, I hade to
take these organs out of the rat, put them in paraphine for optical
microscopy or resine for electronic microscopy. I then the produced bloc in
very thin slices, so we could study them on microscope.

Normaly, as soon as you kill the animal, cells begins to destroy them
selves. And thus what you see in the microscope is no more what was there
when the cell were alive.

What is done to avoid this phenomenon is to drown the tissue in a fixative
substance that will avoid modification or destruction of the cells. On of
these fixative is base on ac. formique. (as far as I remeber)
The quicker the tissue is washed with this fixative, the better the quality
of the information.

To do this, we use the following prcess: the living rat is put asleep with
ether or something alike. We put a catheter in the out going hart artery
that leads the blood everywhere in the body. Through this catheter we fill
in the liquid fixative agent. We also put a catheter in the hart outgoing
vein that leads blood to the lungs to pump out the blood.

So we exchange the blood with another liquid, the fixative agent. It works
well.

I suppose, the same sort of mechanism or most probably or much more
sofisticated technique may be used in mutilation. The circulatory system is
the best way to bring a substance in all part of the body, as quick as
possible and to each cells.

But the described method leaves traces of blood. Some red cells are still
visible under microscope on the slice. The object of the method is not to
remove the blood, but to use the blood path to fill the body with a
fixative agent.
I don't say it is the case with catle mutilation, but we use a technique
that have apparently the same effects.
This process requires just a few minutes, and the body is totaly hard after
it.

An interresting thing to examine in these mutilated body, is if there are
traces of a foreign substances. But I know, it's hard to analyse.

Anyone more info ?
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!status!jonc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ozzie or Aussie
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Jon Clarke)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 20:52:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Z*NET Global News Gateway in Parnell New Zealand.
Lines: 16

Anne Douglass <[e-mail]> writes:

> Oops!  Seems to have been posted twice!
> Told me it didn't work the first time.
> Never mind, Mac - I forgive you.


 Heck Anne you are an Aussie so we forgive you (grin).


 Jon Clarke                                                     Z*NET Pacific
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  [e-mail]           GEnie: J.Clarke6        Hexagon: HSBC NZM EBD
  Phone: [phone]       IFNA : 3/772:105        GEM    : NZM CABLES
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     "Practise safe computing ! Wear a write protect tab!" jc 1988
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!battin
From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: VENUS.IUCF.INDIANA.EDU
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution:  world
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 11:50:00 GMT
Lines: 87

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes...

>Steve Gamble x3293 ([e-mail]) wrote:

>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>> > I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
>> > some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
>> >
>> >
>> > 3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
>> > is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
>> > claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two).
>
>>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>> This sounds interesting. I have not heard the claim that Tim Good has seen
>> 'Greys' himself before. Can you provide a reference?
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> Steve
>
>In a radio interview with Nicky Cambell he said that he had heard that there
>are aliens in New York that are very telepathic, so he decided to test this
>theory. What he did was sit down in the foyer of a New York hotel and started
>repeating in his mind something along the lines of "if any extraterrestial
>beings can pick up this message, please can to this hotel". After about half an
>hour, a gentleman with very grey skin sat down next to him in the foyer, so Tim
>said in his mind "if you are an extraterrestial being, rub the side of your nose
>with you right index finger". Just as soon as he had thought this, the man did
>exactly that, and did so for quite some time. Tim didn't know what else to do so
>he left it at that. The description of the man he gave was greyish skin and eyes
>that had larger pupils than usual, but dressed in a smart suit.

Fah!  I used to stare at cumulus clouds and make them DISOLVE INTO THIN AIR,
purely by the power of my own thought!  Didn't even need an Orgone projector!
Next to that, making grey-skinned stangers show up and rub their noses is MERE
CHILD'S PLAY!!

>
>    In Tim's book "Alien Liaisons" he recounted that while getting help from
>Bob Oeschler (not sure if spelling is correct, pronounced "esh-ler"), Bob told
>him a story that happened soon after Bob Lazar was caught taking him and some
>other people to Area 51 to watch some UFO flight tests. Bob was at a bar with
>his girlfriend, his mind was suddenly filled with panic and hitherto forgotten
>memories. He looked around the bar and saw this grey gentleman staring at him.
>Bob pointed at him and yelled to his girlfriend "that's him! That's him!" and
>the gentleman went out of the bar.

Well, THAT'S certainly incriminating behavior.  When people holler at me in
bars, _I_ always take a bow.
Don't ya just hate it that the grey's are so stuuuupid that they make such
silly responses when pin-pointed!

>                                   Bob's girlfriend then went after the
>gentleman and when she caught up with him, he looked at her and she suddenly
>wanted to leave him alone.

Now that couldn't have been an attack of common sense, could it?  Nah!

>
>    Both of the gentleman had grey skin and eyes with larger than usual
>pupils and telepathic powers.

Excuse me, but where in the above is there any evidence of telepathic power?
I mean, evidence that could possibly be distinguished from self-fulfilling
prophecies and wishful thinking?

>                               Wether these are "Greys" or some other race of
>alien I don't know. Hope that helps.
>
>The Cursor.

Just the other day, I stared at the phone and thought to myself, "if MJ-12
is _really_ trying to take over the world by secret use of alien technologies,
then I want the phone to ring".  Sure enough, within the next 3 hours, the
phone had rung no less than on 4 separate occasions!  One was even a "wrong
number"! (hah!, I could sense that the person on the other end was REALLY an
evil man-in-black just checking their phone taps.  I accused him of this, and
he PROVED that I was right by HANGING UP!)

Incontrovertible proof!

Gene

ObHumorImpaired: Apply :-) liberally above.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 13:23:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 20


>>BUT!!! I fully defend John's First Amendment Right to speak his
>>piece as he pleases.

   The First Amendment is not an issue here.  There is nothing
   about the First Amendment that that requires that anyone
   provide a *forum* for someone's opinions.  Neither Usenet
   nor anyone else is obligated to allow John to post his
   views.   He's free to publish his own newspaper and the
   government cannot censor him.  he's free to get up on his
   soapbox in the city park, (etc).  That's the extent of
   it.


---peter





Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!hsr.no!elektro9.hsr.no!trondk_l
From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circles Filming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 12:24:12 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:

>>There are people claiming they have made the circles, but
>>when they are asked to redraw some of them they can't do it...
>>

>Er..yes they can.  I seen an article that sez they can.  Think it was
>"Newsweek" or "Scientific American".  Can't remember which.  Probably
>"Newsweek".  I don't think "Scientific American" would waste paper on
>crop circles.  But they demonstrated their technique, which was to use
>the huge board they were dragging around in circles to eliminate their
>tracks inside the circle, and just being really careful when they walked
>through the rest of the field.  It was pretty neat.

>        Jason


Thank you for your reply Jason...
I have also seen people demonstrating the technique at television, but
never seen they have fullfilled anything convincing me that people have
made those "masterpieces". Many questions araise...
for instance:
- Why haven't anybody (victims) seen people making the circles? Normally
they are very big, and making them would take alot if time.
- How could so many people around the world get the same idea making the
same sort of crop circles... in the same way?

My theory is that after the crop circles are created (by ?), people are
trying to find ways to reproduce them to get attention. The procedures
followed (if any) under the "reproductions" seems poor and does not
seem to follow ordinary scientific methods.

Trond K. Lindanger
- Your friend in NORWAY

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Mr Sceptic
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 13:39:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard Salter) writes:

>            I'm not a firm believer in UFOs, but I'm not gonna
>insult anybody here who does....


  That's OK, I will.

  People have been talking on various Usenet newsgroups and other
  forums for years about UFO's, alien abductions, government cover-ups
  of alien encounters, flying saucer crashes, etc, for YEARS and YEARS.
  George Adamski wrote about all this stuff in 1951.

  Invariably there are FOAFs who've seen actual physical evidence,
  people who allegedly have stuff implanted in their bodies, alien
  bodies on ice somewhere in an Air-Force vault, underground cities
  beneath a mountain in California, and so forth.  And inevitably
  there are dire predictions of alien invasions, advanced technology
  that the US got from aliens or claims that the real truth behind
  all this is about to be uncovered or revealed in an undeniable
  form Any Day Now.

  And guess what?  Nothing ever materializes.   No evidence, no
  invasions, no implanted artifacts, nothing!   Just excuses
  and more talk.

  Last fall some religious group started plastering this area
  with posters telling us that the Second Coming would occur in
  October.   Guess what?   The posters are all still up but nothing
  happened.

  Some people will believe anything.


---peter




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 13:58:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 43

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M.
>Humphries) wrote:
>>
>> 1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
>> accross cattle mutilations.

   How should we parse this?   Is the above a posting from someone
   who failed his grammer classes in school, or that of a non-native
   English speaker, or is it meant to be taken literally?  If the
   latter, is there a connection between the first clause and the
   second one, or does it represent one of the fundamental problems
   of this whole field?

   I suggest the latter, but let's take them in turn.

   Perhaps the poster meant that he has come across *references*
   to cattle mutilations *in his reading*, but that's not what
   he said.

   Another possibility is that he has literally come across
   cattle mutilations while out walking in the pasture.  Stumbled
   over the severed head of a cow, perhaps, or lost his footing
   on a slippery bit of intestine.   If so, is he suggesting that
   that this is a result of reading books on UFO's?   He's unclear
   about this.

   But from what I've seen on this newsgroup, there is a subtle
   sense in which he may believe that ** Having read a number of
   books on the UFO phenomenon, he has frequently come across
   cattle mutilations **.   That is, for him, **it is as if**
   he has really come across cattle mutilations.   In other words,
   for many on this newsgroup, when they read some strange theory
   or idea or testimony in a book or magazine article it becomes
   real for them.  They are willing to believe it merely because
   they have seen it in printed form on a page.   They demand
   no greater proof, no physical evidence.


---peter




Xref: icaen alt.religion.kibology:5747 alt.alien.visitors:12594
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 13:57:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: GhostBuster Central - Southern NH Usenet Access, Nashua, NH
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (The_Doge) writes:
>     But what *I* want to know is: howcum the Ferengi developed space
> travel and transporters and all that neat stuff without *ever* learning
> anything about basic dentistry?

The Ferengi probably didn't develop space travel and most of the other
advanced technologies that they possess.  They probably stole them
from some other race that visited them, just as we will do (or may
already have done) when given the opportunity.

The Ferengi are, basically, lazy bastards who would find it easier to
steal than to conduct serious scientific research.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!seq!brownt
From: [e-mail] (brown todd francis)
Subject: Please repost:  FREE ENERGY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 15:22:54 GMT
Lines: 10


To whoever posted that file a few days ago about
FREE ENERGY please repost!  The file I am talking about
is very lengthy with a long source listing at the
back.  I read it online but before I could get home to
catch in on my PC, it was gone!

Thanks!


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Dimensional Thought-Lab
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 16:46:04 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Sullivan) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>> JS> FTL drives? Time travel? I believe them not impossible. So why not build
>> JS> the damned things and see if they work?
>>
>>Hear, hear!  People have been literally trying to do so in their garages and
>>barns and basements for some little while.  Have any succeeded?  Nothing but
>>anecdotes to tantalize us.
>>
>>One nuclear engineer (specialty:  magnetic containment) in the NY area
>>seems to have made some progress, but unfortunately he died when his house
>>flew apart a few years back.
>
>Now think about this carefully.  What would you *expect* to happen if you
>turned on an FTL drive in your basement?

Not knowing anything about FTL drives, it is hard to expect anything.
What would you expect? And why?

>--
>John Sullivan, Engineer/Computer Development.      Email: [e-mail]
>Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA.                  Phone: [phone]


Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Dorn's Undergroud Cavern.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 JAN 93 10:26:39
Lines: 24


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charlie Hattendorf) writes...
>[e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>Bear in mind that China Lake and Nellis are full of underground bases that
>>local construction workers are reporting sightings of aliens working with
>>scientists at the lower levels.
>
>Jeff, being as I work at China Lake I would like more info on the 2020
>Group, Michael Lindemann et al.... I suppose I could contact KPFA
>for transcripts, do you know of any other source? Needless to say, I
>have not encountered the underground bases/alien types!
>P.S. Of course my partner, who I share an office with, has been acting
>a little strange lately!

This is one thing I'd like to see more of! Nothing like a first hand report to
completely blow away these silly conspiracies.

However, expect to see continued posts citing China Lake as an underground
base, regardless. Why let a little thing like facts get in the way of a good
conspiracy? It's sad that so much crap, for lack of a better word, clogs up the
works in UFO circles. Did everyone read the NYC abduction posts? Are even Mufon
and Budd Hopkins not immune from the crapola?

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Peterson)
Subject: beliefs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 16:10:56 GMT
Lines: 42


    Some facts are evident :

    1) people have been seeing unexplained flying objects for centuries;
    2) people have been seeing wierd beings for centuries
    3) people have complained of being abducted by non-humans for centuries
    4) modern sightings include radar contacts
    5) the government doesn't want to give out all it's information publicly
    6) there are many other life-bearing planets in our galaxy (Drake equation)

    These are the facts ma'am. Are any conclusions inevitable? No. It seems
quite possible that we are being visited/studied. Many other explanations are
possible too; we cannot think of the unknown.

    As for belief, it has no bearing on reality. People will believe what
they want to believe. A person can be fooled or led only when they want something.
I immediately mistrust anyone who wants to charge money, anyone who is promoting
an agenda, and anyone who is maintaining a public image.

    What does one do when faced with a question that one does not know the
answer for? If one really wants to know the truth, speculation stops, and the
mind is quiet. This is called an open mind. When I turn my open mind to the
evidence we have, it seems most likely that we are being visited/studied.  However,
I cannot accept this as THE answer.

    As for government coverup, the government is in the BUSINESS of coverups!
Watergate, Irangate, Rubbergate, Manhattangate (I mean project), Iraqgate. As
Oliver North said, "I had a shredder in my office. It was my JOB to shred!"
Government agents, coverups, and secret deals are common in the gubment; this
doesn't prove anything.

    Please keep posting anything that has a basis in reality or any thoughts
that are sincerely expressed to further the body of knowledge. I think it is
valuable to propagate new ideas and observations. Of course, I don't welcome
posts about Bigfoot Astral Spaceman Trains from the WWF (I mean WWN).

    BTW, anybody have flying dreams? Meet any white luminous beings? Been
given training in flying by the beings in a class setting? Just curious ...

--
    Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
    Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!nessie!pca27.li.umist.ac.uk!cluster
From: [e-mail] (General Access)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UPCOMING on the ParaNet UFO CONTINUUM
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 18:29:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:


> * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
> * Originally by Michael Corbin
> * Originally to All
> * Originally dated 8 Jan 1993, 18:45

>Here is the schedule for the next two weeks on ParaNet's UFO radio show:

>Sunday, January 10 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
>        Guest:  Jim Speiser
>                Founder of ParaNet and UFO researcher in Arizona.

>Sunday, January 17 9:00 PM Mountain/11:00 Eastern
>        Guest:  David Jacobs
>                Author of Secret Life concerning the abduction phenomenon.

>The show is heard over Galaxy 6, Channel 17, 7.5 MHz Audio.

>Be sure to tune in with your satellite receiver and call in over our toll-free lines to speak to the guests.

>--
>Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]



Where *is* Galaxy 6 and can i receive it from Europe???
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From: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 19:18:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 1418


                     ROSWELL TESTIMONY



        1       INTRODUCTION
        1.1         Document Description
        1.2         Sequence of Events

        2       THE CIVILIANS
        2.1         Loretta Proctor
        2.2         Marian Strickland
        2.3         Bessie Brazel Schreiber
        2.4         William Brazel Jr
        2.5         Glenn Dennis

        3       THE COPS
        3.1         Barbara Dugger

        4       THE PRESS
        4.1         Frank Joyce
        4.2         Lydia Sleppy
        4.3         Walt Whitmore Jr

        5       THE MILITARY
        5.1         Jesse Marcel
        5.2         Jesse Marcel Jr
        5.3         Walter Haut
        5.4         Bill Rickett
        5.5         F.B.
        5.6         Robert Porter
        5.7         Robert Shirkey
        5.8         Robert Slusher
        5.9         Robert Smith
        5.10        Melvin Brown's Daughter
        5.11        Pappy Henderson
        5.12        Pappy Henderson's Wife
        5.13        Pappy Henderson's Daughter
        5.14        Pappy Henderson's Relatives
        5.15        Pappy Henderson's Friend #1
        5.16        Pappy Henderson's Friend #2

        6       PROSAIC EXPLANATIONS
        6.1         Weather Balloon
        6.2         Secret Rocket or Airplane



1  INTRODUCTION



1.1  Document Description

A flying saucer crashed near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.
This document contains testimony from people who were
closely associated with this incident.

Most of the testimony in this document is from the 1992 book
"Crash at Corona" by Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner,
published in the United States by Paragon House.  That book
contains lots of other interesting material, including
material regarding another crash site in New Mexico.  That
book is the source of all testimony in this document except
where noted.



1.2  Sequence of Events

On July 2, 1947, during the evening, a flying saucer crashed
on the Foster Ranch near Corona, New Mexico.  The crash
occurred during a severe thunderstorm.  (The military base
nearest the crash site is in Roswell, New Mexico; hence,
Roswell is more closely associated with this event than
Corona, even though Corona is closer to the crash site.)

On July 3, 1947, William "Mac" Brazel (rhymes with
"frazzle") and his 7-year-old neighbor Dee Proctor found the
remains of the crashed flying saucer.  Brazel was foreman of
the Foster Ranch.  The pieces were spread out over a large
area, perhaps more than half a mile long.  When Brazel drove
Dee back home, he showed a piece of the wreckage to Dee's
parents, Floyd and Loretta Proctor.  They all agreed the
piece was unlike anything they had ever seen.

On July 6, 1947, Brazel showed pieces of the wreckage to
Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox.  Wilcox called Roswell
Army Air Field (AAF) and talked to Major Jesse Marcel, the
intelligence officer.  Marcel drove to the sheriff's office
and inspected the wreckage.  Marcel reported to his
commanding officer, Colonel William "Butch" Blanchard.
Blanchard ordered Marcel to get someone from the Counter
Intelligence Corps, and to proceed to the ranch with Brazel,
and to collect as much of the wreckage as they could load
into their two vehicles.

Soon after this, military police arrived at the sheriff's
office, collected the wreckage Brazel had left there, and
delivered the wreckage to Blanchard's office.  The wreckage
was then flown to Eighth Air Force headquarters in Fort
Worth, and from there to Washington.

Meanwhile, Marcel and Sheridan Cavitt of the Counter
Intelligence Corps drove to the ranch with Mac Brazel.  They
arrived late in the evening.  They spent the night in
sleeping bags in a small out-building on the ranch, and in
the morning proceeded to the crash site.

On July 7, 1947, Marcel and Cavitt collected wreckage from
the crash site.  After filling Cavitt's vehicle with
wreckage, Marcel told Cavitt to go on ahead, that Marcel
would collect more wreckage, and they would meet later back
at Roswell AAF.  Marcel filled his vehicle with wreckage.
On the way back to the air field, Marcel stopped at home to
show his wife and son the strange material he had found.

On July 7, 1947, around 4:00 pm, Lydia Sleppy at Roswell
radio station KSWS began transmitting a story on the
teletype machine regarding a crashed flying saucer out on
the Foster Ranch.  Transmission was interrupted, seemingly
by the FBI.

On July 8, 1947, in the morning, Marcel and Cavitt arrived
back at Roswell AAF with two carloads of wreckage.  Marcel
accompanied this wreckage, or most it, on a flight to Fort
Worth AAF.

On July 8, 1947, around noon, Colonel Blanchard at Roswell
AAF ordered Second Lieutenant Walter Haut to issue a press
release telling the country that the Army had found the
remains of a crashed a flying saucer.  Haut was the public
information officer for the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell AAF.
Haut delivered the press release to Frank Joyce at radio
station KGFL.  Joyce waited long enough for Haut to return
to the base, then called Haut there to confirm the story.
Joyce then sent the story on the Western Union wire to the
United Press bureau.

On July 8, 1947, in the afternoon, General Clemence McMullen
in Washington spoke by telephone with Colonel (later
Brigadier General) Thomas DuBose in Fort Worth, chief of
staff to Eighth Air Force Commander General Roger Ramey.
McMullen ordered DuBose to tell Ramey to quash the flying
saucer story by creating a cover story, and to send some of
the crash material immediately to Washington.

On July 8, 1947, in the afternoon, General Roger Ramey held
a press conference at Eighth Air Force headquarters in Fort
Worth in which he announced that what had crashed at Corona
was a weather balloon, not a flying saucer.  To make this
story convincing, he showed the press the remains of a
damaged weather balloon that he claimed was the actual
wreckage from the crash site.  (Apparently, the obliging
press did not ask why the Army hurriedly transported weather
balloon wreckage to Fort Worth, Texas, site of the press
conference, from the crash site in a remote area of New
Mexico.)

The only newspapers that carried the initial flying saucer
version of the story were evening papers from the Midwest to
the West, including the Chicago Daily News, the Los Angeles
Herald Express, the San Francisco Examiner, and the Roswell
Daily Record.  The New York Times, the Washington Post, and
the Chicago Tribune were morning papers and so carried only
the cover-up story the next morning.

At some point, a large group of soldiers were sent to the
debris field on the Foster Ranch, including a lot of MPs
whose job was to limit access to the field.  A wide search
was launched well beyond the limits of the debris field.
Within a day or two, a few miles from the debris field, the
main body of the flying saucer was found, and a mile or two
from that several bodies of small humanoids were found.

The military took Mac Brazel into custody for about a week,
during which time he was seen on the streets of Roswell with
a military escort.  His behavior aroused the curiosity of
friends when he passed them without any sign of recognition.
Following this period of detention, Brazel repudiated his
initial story.



2  THE CIVILIANS



2.1  Loretta Proctor

[NB: In the sections of this document that contain
testimony, all text not enclosed in brackets, like those
that enclose this sentence, is verbatim testimony.]

[Loretta Proctor, Mac Brazel's nearest neighbor, was one of
the first to see pieces of the wreckage Brazel had found.
She was interviewed in July 1990.]

[Mac] had this piece of material that he had picked up.  He
wanted to show it to us and wanted us to go down and see the
rest of the debris or whatever, [but] we didn't on account
of the transportation and everything wasn't too good.  He
didn't get anybody to come out who was interested in it.
The piece he brought looked like a kind of tan, lightbrown
plastic.  It was very lightweight, like balsa wood.  It
wasn't a large piece, maybe about four inches long, maybe
just a little larger than a pencil.

We cut on it with a knife and would hold a match on it, and
it wouldn't burn.  We knew it wasn't wood.  It was smooth
like plastic, it didn't have a real sharp corners, kind of
like a dowel stick.  Kind of dark tan.  It didn't have any
grain, just smooth.  I hadn't seen anything like it.

[The following statement by Loretta Proctor suggests the
possibility that Mac Brazel had been bribed to keep quiet.]

I think that within that year, he had moved off the ranch
and moved to Alamagordo or to Tularosa and he put in a
locker there.  That was before people had home freezers, and
it was a large refrigerated building.  You would buy beef
and cut it up and put it in those lockers and you had a key
to it and you could get your beef out when you wanted it.  I
think it would have been pretty expensive, and we kind of
wondered how he could put it in with rancher's wages.

[Here is what Loretta Proctor said on the American
television program "Unsolved Mysteries".]

Floyd [Loretta's husband] and a neighbor was in Roswell and
saw Mac surrounded by some of the Air Force people.  And
they walked right by them and Mac wouldn't speak to them.
They thought it was kind of funny, I guess, really wondered
what he'd got into.  And Mac, he wouldn't talk about it
after he come back home.  But he did say if he ever found
something else he wouldn't report it.



2.2  Marian Strickland

[Marian Strickland was a neighbor of Mac Brazel.  She was
interviewed in 1990.]

[Mac] made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there
was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch.
He was a man who had integrity.  He definitely felt insulted
and mis-used, and disrespected.  He was worse than annoyed.
He was definitely under some stress, and felt that he had
been kicked around.

He was threatened that if he opened his mouth, he might get
thrown in the back side of the jail.  He gave that
impression, definitely.



2.3  Bessie Brazel Schreiber

[Bessie Brazel Schreiber is Mac Brazel's daughter.  Here is
her description of wreckage from the crash.]

[The material resembled] a sort of aluminum-like foil.  Some
of [these] pieces had a sort of tape stuck to them.  Even
though the stuff looked like tape, it could not be peeled
off or removed at all.  Some of these pieces had something
like numbers and lettering on them, but there were no words
we were able to make out.  The figures were written out like
you would write numbers in columns, but they didn't look
like the numbers we use at all.

[There was also] a piece of something made out of the same
metal-like foil that looked like a pipe sleeve.  About four
inches across and equally long, with a flange on one end.
[Also] what appeared to be pieces of heavily waxed paper.



2.4  William Brazel Jr

[William Brazel Jr is Mac Brazel's son.  Here is his
description of wreckage from the crash.]

[One of the pieces looked like] something on the order of
tinfoil, except that [it] wouldn't tear....  You could
wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed
its original shape... quite pliable, but you couldn't crease
or bend it like ordinary metal.  Almost like a plastic, but
definitely metallic.  Dad once said that the Army had once
told him it was not anything made by us.

[There was also] some threadlike material.  It looked like
silk, but was not silk, a very strong material [without]
strands or fibers like silk would have.  This was more like
a wire, all one piece or substance.

[There were also] some wooden-like particles like balsa wood
in weight, but a bit darker in color and much harder....  It
was pliable but wouldn't break.  Weighed nothing, but you
couldn't scratch it with your fingernail.  All I had was a
few small bits.  [There was no writing or markings on the
pieces I had] but Dad did say one time that there were what
he called "figures" on some of the pieces he found.  He
often referred to the petroglyphs the ancient Indians drew
on the rocks around here as "figures", too, and I think
that's what he meant to compare them with.

[Here are other remarks by William Brazel Jr.]

My dad found this thing and he told me a little bit about
it, not much, because the Air Force asked him to take an
oath that he wouldn't tell anybody in detail about it.  He
went to his grave and he never told anybody.

He was an oldtime Western cowboy, and they didn't do a lot
of talking.  My brother and I had just went through World
War II (him in the Army and me in the Navy) and needless to
say, my dad was proud.  Like he told me, "When you guys went
in the service, you took an oath, and I took an oath not to
tell."  The only thing he said was, "Well, there's a big
bunch of stuff, and there's some tinfoil, some wood, and on
some of that wood there was Japanese or Chinese figures."

[At the time of the crash, William Brazel Jr had been living
and working in Albuquerque, but returned when his father was
taken into custody and thus there was no one to run the
ranch.]

I rode out there [the field where the wreckage was found] on
the average of once a week, and I was riding through that
area, I was looking.  That's why I found those little
pieces.

Not over a dozen pieces.  I'd say maybe eight different
pieces.  But there was only three [different] items
involved: something on the order of balsa wood, something on
the order of heavy-gauge monofilament fishing line, and a
little piece of -- it wasn't tinfoil, it wasn't lead foil --
a piece about the size of my finger.  Some of it was like
balsa wood: real light and kind of neutral color, more of a
tan.  To the best of my memory, there wasn't any grain in
it.  Couldn't break it, it'd flex a little.  I couldn't
whittle it with my pocket knife.

The "string", I couldn't break it.  The only reason I
noticed the tinfoil (I'm gonna call it tinfoil), I picked
this stuff up and put it in my chaps pocket.  Might be two
or three days or a week before I took it out and put it in a
cigar box.  I happened to notice when I put that piece of
foil in that box, and the damn thing just started unfolding
and just flattened out.  Then I got to playing with it.  I'd
fold it, crease it, lay it down and it'd unfold.  It's kinda
wierd.  I couldn't tear it.  The color was in between
tinfoil and lead foil, about the [thickness] of lead foil.

I was in Corona, in the bar, the pool hall.  Sort of the
meeting place, domino parlor....  That's where everybody got
together.  Everybody was asking, they'd seen the papers
(this was about a month after the crash) and I said, "Oh, I
picked up a few little bits and pieces and fragments."  So,
what are they?  "I dunno."

Then lo and behold, here comes the military out to the
ranch, a day or two later.  I'm almost positive that the
officer in charge, his name was Armstrong, a real nice guy.
He had a [black] sergeant with him that was real nice.  I
think there was two other enlisted men.  They said, "We
understand your father found this weather balloon."  I said,
"Well yeah."  "And we understand you found some bits and
pieces."  I said, "Yeah, I've got a cigar box that's got a
few of them in there, down at the saddle shed."

And this (I think he was a captain), and he said, "Well, we
would like to take it with us."  I said, "Well..."  And he
smiled and he said, "Your father turned the rest of it over
to us, and you know he's under an oath not to tell.  Well,"
he said, "we came after those bits and pieces."  And I kind
of smiled and said, "OK, you can have the stuff, I have no
use for it at all."

He said, "Well, have you examined it?"  And I said, "Well,
enough to know that I don't know what the hell it is."  And
he said, "We would rather you didn't talk very much about
it."



2.5  Glenn Dennis

[Glenn Dennis was a mortician in Roswell in 1947.  His
employer provided mortuary services for Roswell Army Air
Field.  Dennis drove a combination hearse and ambulance for
both civilian and military assignments.  On July 9 or 10,
1947, Dennis got several phone calls from the Roswell AAF
mortuary officer, who was more of an administrator than a
mortuary technician.  The officer wanted to know about
hermetically sealed caskets ("What was the smallest one they
could get?"), and about chemical solutions.  Dennis was
interviewed in August 1989 by Stanton Friedman.]

This is what was so interesting.  See, this is why I feel
like there was really something involved in this, because
they didn't want to do anything that was going to make an
imbalance.  They kept saying, "OK, what's this going to do
to the blood system, what's this going to do to the tissue?"
Then when they informed me that these bodies [had] laid out
in the middle of July, in the middle of the prairie, I mean
that body's going to be as dark as your [blue] blazer there,
and it's going to be in bad shape.  I was the one who
suggested dry ice.  I'd done that a time or two.

I talked to them four or five times in the afternoon.  They
would keep calling back and asking me different questions
involving the body.  What they were really after was how to
move those bodies.  They didn't give me any indication they
even had the bodies, or where they were.  But they kept
talking about these bodies, and I said, "What do the bodies
look like?"  And they said, "I don't know, but I'll tell you
one thing: This happened some time ago."  The only thing
that was mentioned was that they were exposed to the
elements for several days.

I understand these bodies weren't in the same location as
where they found some of the others.  They said the bodies
weren't in the vehicle itself; the bodies were separated by
two or three miles from it.  They talked about three
different bodies: two of them mangled, one that was in
pretty good shape.

[That evening, Dennis took a GI accident victim to the base
infirmary, which was in the same building as the hospital
and the mortuary.  He walked the injured GI inside, then
drove around to the back to see a pretty young Army Air
Forces nurse he had recently gotten to know.]

There were two MPs standing right there, and I got out and
started to go in.  I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did if
I hadn't parked in the emergency area.  They probably
thought I was coming after somebody.  The doors were open to
the military ambulances and that's where some wreckage was,
and there was an MP on each side.  I saw all the wreckage.

I don't know what it was, but I knew there was something
going on, and that's when I first got an inclination that
something was happening.  What was so curious about it, was
that in two of those ambulances was a deal that looked like
[the bottom] half of a canoe.  It didn't look like
aluminum.  You know what stainless steel looks like when you
put heat on it?  How it'll turn kinda purplish, with kind of
a blue hue to it?  [Dennis later said that he saw a row of
unrecognizable symbols several inches high on the metal
devices.]  I just glanced in and kept going.

When I got inside, I noticed there was quite a bit of
activity.  When I went back into the lounge, there were "big
birds" [high-ranking officers he didn't recognize, though he
was familiar with all the local medical people] everywhere.
They were really shook up.  So I went down the hall where I
usually go, and I got down the hall just a little way and an
MP met me right there.  He wanted to know who the hell I was
and where I was from, and what business did I have there?  I
explained who I was.  Evidently he was under the impression
that they called me to come out.

Anyway, I got past that and I went on in and then this is
where I met the nurse.  She was involved in this thing, she
was on duty.  She told me, "How in the hell did you get in
here?"  I said, "I just walked in."  She said, "My God, you
are going to get killed."  And I said, "They didn't stop
me."  I was going to the Coke machine to get us a Coke, and
this big red-headed colonel said, "What's that son of a
bitch doing here?"

He hollered at the MPs and that's when it hit the fan.
These two MPs grabbed me by the arms and carried me clear
outside.  They carried me to the ambulance.  I didn't walk,
they carried me.  And they told me to get my ass out of
there.  [They followed him back to the funeral home.]

About two or three hours later, they [called] and told me,
"You open your mouth and you'll be so far back in the jug
they'll have to shoot pinto beans [into you] with a bean
shooter."  I just laughed and said, "Go to hell."

[Dennis spoke with the nurse again the following day.]

She said there were three little bodies.  Two of them were
just mangled beyond everything, but there was one of them
that was really in pretty good condition.

And she said, "Let me show you the difference between our
anatomy and theirs.  Really, what they looked like was
ancient Chinese: small, fragile, no hair."  She said their
noses didn't protrude, the eyes were set pretty deep, and
the ears were just little indentations.  She said the
anatomy of the arms was different, the upper arm was longer
than the lower.  They didn't have thumbs, they had four
different, she called them "tentacles", I think.  Didn't
have any fingernails.  She then described how they had
little things like suction cups on their fingertips.

I asked her were these men or women?  [Were their] sex
organs the same as ours?  She said, "No, some were missing."
The first thing that decomposes on a body would be the
brain, next the sex organs, especially in women.  But she
thought there had probably been something, some animals.
Some of these bodies were badly mutilated.

She said they got the bodies out of those containers [the
ones he had seen in the backs of the ambulances, on the way
into the hospital].  See, they weren't at the crash site,
they were about a mile or two from the crash site.  She said
they looked like they had their own little cabins.  She said
the lower portion, the abdomen and legs, was crushed, but
the upper portion wasn't that bad.  She told me the head was
larger and it was kind of like, the eyes were different.

[A few weeks later, Dennis heard from his father.]

"What the hell'd you get into?  What kind of trouble are you
in?"  I said, "I'm not in any trouble."  And he said, "The
hell you're not.  The sheriff [an old friend of the elder
Dennis] said that the base personnel have been in and they
want to know all about your background."



3  THE COPS



3.1  Barbara Dugger

[Barbara Dugger is the granddaughter of George and Inez
Wilcox.  George was the sheriff who Mac Brazel contacted
after discovering the crashed flying saucer.  Barbara Dugger
was interviewed in 1991 by Kevin Randle.]

[My grandmother said] "Don't tell anybody.  When the
incident happened, the military police came to the jailhouse
and told George and I that if we ever told anything about
the incident, not only would we be killed, but our entire
family would be killed."

They called my grandfather and someone came and told him
about this incident.  He went out there to the site.  There
was a big burned area and he saw debris.  It was in the
evening.  There were four space beings.  Their heads were
large.  They wore suits like silk.  One of the little men
was alive.  If she [Inez] said it happened, it happened.

[Regarding the death threat, Barbara said Inez said:] "They
meant it, Barbara.  They were not kidding."

She said the event shocked him.  He never wanted to be
sheriff again after that.  Grandmother ran for sheriff and
was defeated.  My grandmother was a very loyal citizen of
the United States, and she thought it was in the best
interest of the country not to talk about it.



4  THE PRESS



4.1  Frank Joyce

[Frank Joyce worked at the radio station KGFL.  He got a
phone call from a man, presumably Mac Brazel, who reported
wreckage on his ranch.]

He asked me what to do about it.  I recommended he go to
Roswell Army Air Base [sic].

The next thing I heard was that the PIO, [Lieutenant] Walter
Haut, came into the station some time after I got this call.
He handed me a news release printed on onionskin stationary
and left immediately.  I called him back at the base and
said, "I suggest that you not release this type of story
that says you have a flying saucer or flying disk."  He
said, "No, it's Ok.  I have the OK from the C.O. [Colonel
Blanchard]."

I sent the release on the Western Union wire to the United
Press bureau.  After I returned to the station, there was a
flash on the wire with the story: "The U.S. Army Air Corps
[sic] says it has a flying disk."  They typed a paragraph or
two, and then other people got on the wire and asked for
more information.  Then the phone calls started coming on,
and I referred them to [the airfield].

Then the wire stopped and just hummed.  Then a phone call
came in, and the caller identified himself as an officer at
the Pentagon, and this man said some very bad things about
what would happen to me.  He was really pretty nasty.
Finally, I got through to him: I said, "You're talking about
a release from the U.S. Army Air Corps."  Bang, the phone
went dead, he was just gone.

Then [station owner Walt] Whitmore called me and said,
"Frank, what's going on down there?"  He was quite upset.
He asked, "Where did you get this story?"  In the meantime,
I got this [USAAF news] release and hid it, to have proof so
no one could accuse me of making it up.  Whitmore came in to
the station and I gave him the release.  He took it with
him.

The next significant thing occurred in the evening.  I got a
call from [Mac] Brazel.  He said we haven't got this story
right.  I invited him over to the station.  He arrived not
long after sunset.  He was alone, but I had the feeling that
we were being watched.  He said something about a weather
balloon.  I said, "Look, this is completely different than
what you told me on the phone the other day about the little
green men," and that's when he said, "No, they weren't
green."  I had the feeling he was under tremendous pressure.
He said, "Our lives will never be the same again."



4.2  Lydia Sleppy

[Lydia Sleppy was a teletype operator at Roswell radio
station KSWS.  The event she describes below took place
around 4:00 pm on July 7, 1947.  She was interviewed in
October 1990 by Stanton Friedman.]

We were Mutual Broadcasting and ABC, and if we had anything
newsworthy, we would put it on the [teletype] machine, and I
was the one who did the typing.  It was in my office.
Mr Tucker [Merle Tucker was the station owner] was in
Washington DC trying to get an application approved for a
station in El Paso, when this call came from John McBoyle
[another KSWS staffer].  He told me he had something hot for
the network.  I said, "Give me a minute and I'll get the
assistant manager," because if it was anything like that, I
wanted one of them there while I was taking it down.

I went back and asked Mr [Karl] Lambertz (he came up from
the big Dallas station) if he would come up and watch.  John
was dictating and [Karl] was standing right at my shoulder.
I got into it enough to know that it was a pretty big story,
when the bell came on [signaling an interruption].  Typing
came across: "This is the FBI, you will cease transmitting."

I had my shorthand pad, and I turned around and told [Karl]
that I had been cut off, but that I could take it in
shorthand and then we could call it in to the network.  I
took it in shorthand, as John went on to give the story.  He
had seen them take the thing away. He'd been out there
[presumably at the Foster ranch] when they took it away.
And at that time, if I remember correctly, John said they
were gonna load it up and take it to Texas.  But when the
planes came in, they were from Wright Field.



4.3  Walt Whitmore Jr

[Walt Whitmore Jr was the son of the owner of Roswell radio
station KGFL.  Here is his description of wreckage from the
crash.]

[It was] very much like lead foil in appearance but could
not be torn or cut at all.  Extremely light in weight.  Some
small beams that appeared to be either wood or woodlike had
a sort of writing on it which looked like numbers which had
either been added or multiplied [in columns].



5  THE MILITARY



5.1  Jesse Marcel

[Major Jesse Marcel was one of the the first two military
people to visit the Corona crash site.  The other was
Sheridan Cavitt, who to this day has refused to even
acknowledge that he was there on the ranch with Marcel.
Jesse Marcel died in 1982.  He was interviewed in 1979.]

When we arrived at the crash site, it was amazing to see the
vast amount of area it covered.  It was nothing that hit the
ground or exploded [on] the ground.  It's something that
must have exploded above ground, traveling perhaps at a high
rate of speed, we don't know.  But it scattered over an area
of about three quarters of a mile long, I would say, and
fairly wide, several hundred feet wide.  So we proceeded to
pick up all the fragments we could find and load up our Jeep
Carry-All.  It was quite obvious to me, familiar with air
activities, that it was not a weather balloon, nor was it an
airplane or a missile.  What it was, we didn't know.  We
just picked up the fragments.  It was something I had never
seen before, and I was pretty familiar with all air
activities.  We loaded up the Carry-All but I wasn't
satisfied.  I told Cavitt, "You drive this vehicle back to
the base and I'll go back out there and pick up as much as I
can put in the car,", which I did.  But we picked up only a
very small portion of the material that was there.

One thing that impressed me about the debris that we were
referring to is the fact that a lot of it looked like
parchment.  A lot of it had a lot of little members
[I-beams] with symbols that we had to call them
hieroglyphics because I could not interpret them, they could
not be read, they were just symbols, something that meant
something and they were not all the same.  The members that
this was painted on -- by the way, those symbols were pink
and purple, lavender was actually what it was.  And so
these little members could not be broken, could not be
burned.  I even tried to burn that.  It would not burn.  The
same with the parchment we had.

But something that is more astounding is that the piece of
metal that we brought back was so thin, just like the
tinfoil in a pack of cigarette paper.  I didn't pay too much
attention to that at first, until one of the GIs came to me
and said, "You know the metal that was in there?  I tried to
bend that stuff and it won't bend.  I even tried it with a
sledge hammer.  You can't make a dent on it."

I didn't go back to look at it myself again, because we were
busy in the office and I had quite a bit of work to do.  I
am quite sure that this young fellow would not have lied to
me about that, because he was a very truthful, very honest
guy, so I accepted his word for that.  So, beyond that, I
didn't actually see him hit the matter with a sledge hammer,
but he said, "It's definite that it cannot be bent and it's
so light that it doesn't weigh anything."  And that was true
of all the material that was brought up.  It was so light
that it weighed practically nothing.

This particular piece of metal was, I would say, about two
feet long and perhaps a foot wide.  See, that stuff weighs
nothing, it's so thin, it isn't any thicker than the tinfoil
in a pack of cigarettes.  So I tried to bend the stuff, it
wouldn't bend.  We even tried making a dent in it with a
16-pound sledge hammer, and there was still no dent in it.
I didn't have the time to go out there and find out more
about it, because I had so much other work to do that I just
let it go.  It's still a mystery to me as to what the whole
thing was.  Like I said before, I knew quite a bit about the
material used in the air, but it was nothing I had seen
before.  And as of now, I still don't know what it was.  So
that's how it stands.

[Here is what Jesse Marcel said on the American television
program "Unsolved Mysteries".]

There were just fragments strewn all over the area, an area
about three quarters of a mile long and several hundred feet
wide.  So we proceeded to pick up the parts.

I tried to bend the stuff, it would not bend.  I even tried
to burn it, it would not burn.  That stuff weighs nothing.
It's not any thicker than tin foil in a pack of cigarettes.
We even tried making a dent in it with a 16-pound sledge
hammer, still no dent in it.

One thing I was certain of, being familiar with all our
activities, that it was not a weather balloon, nor an
aircraft, nor a missile.  It was something else, which we
didn't know what it was.



5.2  Jesse Marcel Jr

[Jesse Marcel Jr is Major Jesse Marcel's son.  When Major
Marcel returned from the Foster Ranch with a carload of
wreckage from the crashed flying saucer, he stopped off at
home to show his wife and his eleven-year old son what he
had found.  Jesse Jr is now a medical doctor, an Army
reserve helicopter pilot who served in Vietnam, and a
qualified aircraft accident investigator.]

The crash and remnants of the device that I happened to see
have left an imprint on my memory that can never be
forgotten.  The craft was not conventional in any sense of
the word, in that the remains were most likely what was then
known as a flying saucer that had apparently been stressed
beyond its designed capabilities.

I'm basing this on the fact that many of the remnants,
including I-beam pieces that were present, had strange
hieroglyphic typewriting symbols across the inner surfaces,
pink and purple, except that I don't think there were any
animal figures present as there are in true Egyptian
hieroglyphics.

The remainder of the debris was just described as
nondescript metallic debris, or just shredded fragments, but
there was a fair amount of the intact I-beam members
present.  I only saw a small portion of the debris that was
actually present at the crash site.

[Here is what Jesse Marcel Jr said on the American
television program "Unsolved Mysteries".]

When [Dad] came back to the house he had a bunch of wreckage
with him at the time, and he brought the wreckage into the
house.  Actually wakened my mother and myself out so we
could view this, because it was so unusual.  This was about
two o'clock in the morning as I recall, and he spread it out
so we could get some basic idea what it looked like, what it
was....

We were all amazed by this debris that was there, primarily
because we didn't know what it was, you know, it was just
the unknown....

This writing [on a short piece of I-beam] could be described
as like hieroglyphics, Egyptian-type hieroglyphics, but not
really.  The symbols that were on the I-beams were more of a
geometric-type configuration in various designs.  It had a
violet-purple type color and was actually an embossed part
of the metal itself.

Years after this incident happened, we would talk privately
among ourselves about what the possibilities of this, what
this thing was.  And I feel that we, well I know that we
came to the conclusion it was not of earthly origin.

If I had not actually held pieces of it in my hand, I would
not think that it would be possible.  But because I happened
to see this, that's the only reason I believe it....

My dad said obviously it [the weather balloon story] was a
cover-up story, it was not a weather balloon.  He was a
little disturbed about that, but he had his own security
classification to protect.  He could not really go public
with, hey this is not the real thing, I mean this is not a
weather balloon.  So he had to keep that to himself.



5.3  Walter Haut

[Second Lieutenant Walter Haut was a public information
officer at Roswell AAF in 1947.  Colonel Blanchard ordered
Haut to issue a press release telling the country that the
Army had found a flying saucer.  Here is the text of Haut's
press release.]

The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality
yesterday when the Intelligence office of the 509th Bomb
Group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was
fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the
cooperation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's
office of Chaves County.

The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime
last week.  Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored
the disc until such time as he was able to contact the
sheriff's office, who in turn notified Maj. Jesse A. Marcel
of the 509th Bomb Group Intelligence Office.

Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at
the rancher's home.  It was inspected at Roswell Army Air
Field and subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher
headquarters.

[Here is what Haut said on the American television program
"Unsolved Mysteries".]

I took the release into town.  And that was one of the
things that Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into
town, because if there was any validity to this, he didn't
want the news media to feel that we had jumped over their
heads and were not cooperating with them.

[Here is what Haut said in an interview for an article in
"Air and Space/Smithsonian" magazine, Sep-Oct 1992, when
asked what he thought really happened back in 1947.]

I feel there was a crash of an extra-terrestrial vehicle
near Corona.



5.4  Bill Rickett

[Bill Rickett was a Counter Intelligence Corps officer based
in Roswell.  He had an opportunity to examine some of the
wreckage recovered from the Foster Ranch.  He escorted Dr
Lincoln LaPaz, a meteor expert from the New Mexico Institute
of Meteoritics, on a tour of the crash site and the
surrounding area.]

[The material] was very strong and very light.  You could
bend it but couldn't crease it.  As far as I know, no one
ever figured out what it was made of....

It was LaPaz's job to try to find out what the speed and
trajectory of the thing was.  LaPaz was a world-renowned
expert on trajectories of objects in the sky, especially
meteors, and I was told to give him all the help I could.

At one point LaPaz interviewed the farmer [Mac Brazel].  I
remember something coming up during their conversation about
this fellow thinking that some of his animals had acted
strangely after this thing happened.  Dr LaPaz seemed very
interested in this for some reason.

LaPaz wanted to fly over the area, and this was arranged.
He found one other spot where he felt this thing had touched
down and then taken off again.  The sand at this spot had
been turned into a glass-like substance.  We collected a
boxful of samples of this material.  As I recall, there were
some metal samples here, too, of that same sort of thin foil
stuff.  LaPaz sent this box off somewhere for study; I don't
know or recall where, but I never saw it again.  This place
was some miles from the other one.

LaPaz was very good at talking to people, especially some of
the local ranch hands who didn't speak a lot of English.
LaPaz spoke Spanish.  I remember he found a couple of people
who had seen two -- I don't know what to call them, UFOs I
suppose -- anyway, had seen two of these things fly over
very slowly at a very low altitude on a date, in the
evening, that he determined had been a day or two after the
other one had blown up.  These people said something about
animals being affected, too....

Before he went back to Albuquerque, he told me that he was
certain that this thing had gotten into trouble, that it had
touched down for repairs, taken off again, and then
exploded.  He also felt certain there were more than one of
these devices, and that the others had been looking for it.
At least that's what he said.  He was positive the thing had
malfunctioned.

The Air Force's explanation that it was a balloon was
totally untrue.  It was not a balloon.  I never did know for
sure what its purpose was, but it wasn't ours.  I remember
speculating with LaPaz that it might have been some higher
civilization checking on us.  LaPaz wasn't against the idea,
but he was going to leave speculations out of his report.



5.5  F.B.

[F.B. was an Army Air Forces photographer stationed at
Anacostia Naval Air Station in Washington DC when he and
fellow photographer A.K. were flown aboard a B-25 bomber to
Roswell Army Air Field sometime during the second week of
July 1947.  F.B. was interviewed by Stanton Friedman.]

One morning they came in and they said, "Pack up your bags
and we'll have the cameras there, ready for you."  We didn't
know where we was going.

[After a few hours' flight, they arrived at Roswell.]  We
got in a staff car with some of the gear they had brought
along with us in trucks, and we headed out, about an hour
and a half, we was heading north.

We got out there [one of the crash sites in the Corona area]
and there was a helluva lot of people out there, in a closed
tent.  You couldn't hardly see anything inside the tent.
They said, "Set your camera up to take a picture fifteen
feet away."  A.K. got in a truck and headed out to where
they was picking up pieces.  All kinds of brass running
around.  And they was telling us what to do.  Shoot this,
shoot that.  There was an officer in charge.  He met us out
there and he'd go into the tent and he'd come back and tell
us, "OK."  He'd stand there right besides us and [say], "OK,
take this picture."

There was four bodies I could see when the flash went off,
but you was almost blind because it was a beautiful day,
sunny.  You'd go in this tent, which was awful dark.  That's
all I was taking, bodies.  These bodies was under a canvas,
and they'd open it up and you'd take a picture, flip out
your flashbulb, put another one in [take another picture]
and give him the film holder (each holder held two sheets of
four-by-five inch cut film) and then you went to the next
spot.

I guess there was ten to twelve officers, and when I got
ready to go in, they'd all come out.  The tent was about
twenty by thirty foot.  The bodies looked like they was
lying on a tarp.  One guy did all the instructions.  He'd
take a flashlight and he'd come down there.  "See this
flashlight?"  Yes sir.  "You're in focus with it?"  Yes sir.
"Take a picture of this."  He'd take the flashlight away.
We just moved around in a circle, taking pictures.  Seemed
to me [the bodies] were all just about identical.  Dark
complected.  I remember they was thin, and it looked like
they had too big of a head.  I took thirty shots.  I think I
had about fifteen [film] holders.  It smelled funny in
there.

A.K. came back in a truck that was loaded down with debris.
A lot of pieces sticking out that wasn't there when they
took off.  We got debriefed on the way back to the airport
[Roswell Army Air Field].  About four the next morning, they
woke us, they took us to the mess hall, we ate, we got back
on the B-25 and headed back.  When we got back to Anacostia
we got debriefed some more, by a lieutenant commander.  [It
was made clear to both F.B and A.K. that whatever they
thought they saw in New Mexico, they hadn't seen.]



5.6  Robert Porter

[M/Sgt Robert Porter was a B-29 flight engineer with the
830th Bomb Squadron.  He happens to be Loretta Proctor's
brother.  He was interviewed by Stanton Friedman.]

We flew these pieces.  [Some officers in the crew] told us
it was parts of a flying saucer.  The packages were in
wrapping paper, one triangle-shaped about two and a half
feet across the bottom, the rest in smaller, shoebox-sized
packages.  [They were in] brown paper with tape.  It was
just like I picked up an empty package, very light.  The
loaded triangle-shaped package and three shoebox-sized
packages would have fit into the trunk of a car.

On board were Lieutenant Colonel Payne Jennings [deputy
commander of Roswell] and Major Marcel.  Captain Anderson
said it was from a flying saucer.  We got to Fort Worth,
they transferred [the packages] to a B-25 and took them to
Wright [Field].  When we landed at [Fort Worth], Colonel
Jennings told us to take care of maintenance, and after a
guard was posted, we could eat lunch.  We came back, they
told us they had transferred the material to a B-25.  They
told us it was a weather balloon.  It WASN'T a weather
balloon.



5.7  Robert Shirkey

[First Lieutenant Robert Shirkey was assistant operations
officer of the 509th Bomb Group.  He was interviewed by
Stanton Friedman.]

A call came in to have a B-29 ready to go as soon as
possible.  Where to?  Forth Worth, on Colonel Blanchard's
directive.  [I was] in the Operations Office when Colonel
Blanchard arrived and asked if the airplane was ready.  When
told it was, Blanchard waved to somebody, and approximately
five people came in the front door, down the hallway, and
onto the ramp to climb into the airplane, carrying parts of
the crashed flying saucer.  I got a very short glimpse,
asked Blanchard to turn sideways so [I] could see too.  Saw
them carrying pieces of metal.  They had one piece that was
eighteen by twenty-four inches, brushed stainless steel in
color.



5.8  Robert Slusher

[S/Sgt Robert Slusher was assigned to the 393rd Bomb
Squadron.  On or about July 9, 1947, he was on board a B-29
that carried a single crate from Roswell AAF to Fort Worth
AAF.  Also on board were were four armed MPs.  He said the
crate was twelve feet long, five feet wide, and four feet
high.  Upon arrival at Fort Worth, the crate was loaded onto
a flatbed weapons carrier and hauled off, accompanied by the
MPs, who later rejoined the crew for the return flight.
Robert Slusher was interviewed in 1991.]

[There was an implication that the contents of the crate was
sensitive to air pressure, which suggests that the crate
contained something other than pieces of metal.  The plane
flew at the unusually low altitude of four to five thousand
feet.  Usually on such a trip a B-29 flies at twenty-five
thousand feet, as its cabin is pressurized and the B-29
flies better at high alititude.  However, the bomb bay where
the crate was stowed cannot be pressurized.]

The return flight was above twenty thousand feet, and the
cabin was pressurized.  The round trip took approximately
three hours, fifteen minutes.  The flight was unusual in
that we flew there, dropped the cargo, and returned
immediately.  It was a hurried flight; normally we knew the
day before there would be a flight.

There was a rumor that the crate had debris from the crash.
Whether there were any bodies, I don't know.  The crate had
been specially made; it had no markings.



5.9  Robert Smith

[Robert Smith was a member of the First Air Transport Unit,
which operated Douglas C-54 Skymaster four-engined cargo
planes out of the Roswell AAF.  He was interviewed in 1991.]

A lot of people began coming in all of a sudden because of
the official investigation.  Somebody said it was a plane
crash, but we heard from a man in Roswell that it was not a
plane crash, it was something else, a strange object.  There
was another indication that something serious was going on.
One night, when we were coming back to Roswell, a convoy of
trucks covered with canvas passed us.  When they got to the
[airfield] gate, they headed over to this hangar on the east
end, which was rather unusual.  The truck convoy had red
lights and sirens.

My involvement in the incident was to help load crates of
debris into the aircraft.  We all became aware of the event
when we went to the hangar on the east side of the ramp.
There were a lot of people in plain clothes all over the
place.  They were inspectors, but they were strangers on the
base.  When challenged, they replied they were here on
Project So-and-So, and flashed a card, which was different
from a military ID card.

We were taken to the hangar to load crates.  There was a lot
of farm dirt on the hangar floor.  We loaded [the crates] on
flatbeds and dollies.  Each crate had to be checked as to
width and height.  We had to know which crates went on which
plane.  We loaded crates on three [or] four C-54s.  We
weren't supposed to know their destination, but we were told
they were headed north.

All I saw was a little piece of material.  You could crumple
it up, let it come out.  You couldn't crease it.  One of our
people put it in his pocket.  The piece of debris I saw was
two to three inches square.  It was jagged.  When you
crumpled it up, it then laid back out.  And when it did, it
kind of crackled, making a sound like celophane.  It
crackled when it was let out.  There were no creases.

There were armed guards around during loading of our planes,
which was unusual at Roswell.  There was no way to get to
the ramp except through armed guards.  There were MPs on the
outskirts, and our personnel were between them and the
planes.

The largest [crate] was roughly twenty feet long, four to
five feet high, and four to five feet wide.  It took up an
entire plane.  It wasn't that heavy, but it was a large
volume.  The rest of the crates were two or three feet long
and two feet square or smaller.  The sergeant who had the
piece of material said [it was like] the material in the
crates.  The entire loading took at least six, perhaps eight
hours.  Lunch was brought to us, which was unusual.  The
crates were brought to us on flatbed dollies, which was also
unusual.

Officially, we were told it was a crashed plane, but crashed
planes usually were taken to the salvage yard, not flown
out.  I don't think it was an experimental plane, because
not too many people in that area were experimenting with
planes.  I'm convinced that what we loaded was a UFO that
got into mechanical problems.  Even with the most
intelligent people, things go wrong.

[The C-54 into which I helped load the single twenty-foot
crate] would have been Pappy Henderson's.  I remember seeing
T/Sgt Harbell Elzey, T/Sgt. Edward Bretherton, and S/Sgt.
William Fortner.



5.10  Melvin Brown's Daughter

[Sergeant Melvin Brown was a cook at Roswell AAF in 1947.
One day, he was called out to help guard material retrieved
from the Foster Ranch.  His daughter Beverly was interviewed
by Stanton Friedman in 1989.]

When we were young, he used to tell us stories about things
that had happened to him when he was young.  We got to know
those stories by heart and would all say together, "Here we
go again."

Sometimes, but not too often, he used to say that he saw a
man from outer space.  That used to make us all giggle like
mad.  He said he had to stand guard duty outside a hangar
where a crashed flying saucer was stored, and that his
commanding officer said, "Come on, Brownie, let's have a
look inside."  But they didn't see anything because it had
all been packed up and [was] ready to be flown out to Texas.

He also said that one day all available men were grabbed and
that they had to stand guard where a crashed disc had come
down.  Everything was being loaded onto trucks, and he
couldn't understand why some of the trucks had ice or
something in them.  He did not understand what they wanted
to keep cold.  Him and another guy had to ride in the back
of one of the trucks, and although they were told that they
could get into a lot of trouble if they took in too much of
what was happening, they had a quick look under the covering
and saw two dead bodies, alien bodies.

We really had to giggle at that bit.  He said they were
smaller than a normal man, about four feet, and had much
larger heads than us, with slanted eyes, and that the bodies
looked yellowish, a bit Asian-looking.  We did not believe
him when we were kids, but as I got older, I did kind of
believe it.  Once I asked him if he was scared by them, and
he said, "Hell no, they looked nice, almost as though they
would be friendly if they were alive."



5.11  Pappy Henderson

[Captain Oliver Wendell "Pappy" Henderson was stationed at
Roswell AAF in 1947.  He had flown thirty missions in B-24
Liberator bombers in Europe.  He had participated in the
postwar A-bomb tests in the Pacific and earned major
commendations for his flying.  Unfortunately, he died before
any UFO investigator could interview him, but near the end
of his life he old some of the people closest to him about
what he had seen in July 1947.]



5.12  Pappy Henderson's Wife

[Sappho Henderson was Pappy Henderson's wife.  She was
interviewed by Stanton Friedman.]

We met during World War II when he flew with the 446th Bomb
Squadron.  He flew B-24s [on] thirty missions over Germany.
After the war, he returned home and was then sent to
Roswell.  While stationed there, he ran the "Green Hornet
Airline", which involved flying C-54s and C-47s carrying
VIPs, scientists, and materials from Roswell to the Pacific
during the atom bomb tests.  He had to have a Top Secret
clearance for this responsibility.

In 1980 or 1981, he picked up a newspaper at a grocery store
where we were living in San Diego.  One article described
the crash of a UFO outside Roswell, with the bodies of
aliens discovered beside the craft.  He pointed out the
article to me and said, "I want you to read this article,
because it's a true story.  I'm the pilot who flew the
wreckage of the UFO to Dayton, Ohio [where Wright Field is].
I guess now that they're putting it in the paper, I can tell
you about this.  I wanted to tell you for years."  Pappy
never discussed his work because of his security clearance.

He described the beings as small with large heads for their
size.  He said the material that their suits were made of
was different than anything he had ever seen.  He said they
looked strange.  I believe he mentioned that the bodies had
been packed in dry ice to preserve them.

[Here is what Sappho Henderson said on the American
television program "Unsolved Mysteries".]

My husband Oliver Henderson, otherwise known as "Pappy" in
the Air Force, he was entrusted with many of this country's
top secrets.  And they were safe with him.  He never told
anything that he wasn't supposed to.  And therefore it was
34 years after this incident happened that I heard about
it....

My husband told me the bodies were smaller than human
bodies.  The heads were larger and the eyes were rather
sunken and a little slanted.  Clothing was of material
unlike anything he had seen before.  They were strange, they
were not of this earth.

When my husband, who was a man of truth, who was trusted
with 29 different Army aircraft planes, first pilot aircraft
commander, tells me this story, I believed him.



5.13  Pappy Henderson's Daughter

[Mary Kathryn Groode is Pappy Henderson's daughter.]

When I was growing up, he and I would often spend evenings
looking at the stars.  On one occasion, I asked him what he
was looking for.  He said, "I'm looking for flying saucers.
They're real, you know."

In 1981, during a visit to my parents' home, my father
showed me a newspaper article which described the crash of a
UFO and the recovery of alien bodies outside Roswell, New
Mexico.  He told me that he saw the crashed craft and the
alien bodies described in the article, and that he had flown
the wreckage to Ohio.  He described the alien beings as
small and pale, with slanted eyes and large heads.  He said
they were humanoid-looking, but different from us.  I think
he said there were three bodies.

He said the matter had been Top Secret and that he was not
supposed to discuss it with anyone, but that he felt it was
alright to tell me because it was in the newspaper.



5.14  Pappy Henderson's Relatives

[Stanton Friedman spoke with Pappy Henderson's son and
cousin, both of whom told of having heard Pappy quietly tell
his story after the newspaper article appeared.]



5.15  Pappy Henderson's Friend #1

[John Kromschroeder is a dentist and a retired military
officer.  In 1977, Henderson told Kromschroeder that in 1947
he had transported wreckage and alien bodies.  About a year
later, Henderson showed Kromschroeder a piece of metal he
had taken from the collection of wreckage.  Kromschroeder
and Henderson shared an interest in metallurgy.
Kromschroeder was interviewed in 1990.]

I gave it a good, thorough looking-at and decided it was an
alloy we are not familiar with.  Gray, lustrous metal
resembling aluminum, lighter in weight and much stiffer.
[We couldn't] bend it.  Edges sharp and jagged.



5.16  Pappy Henderson's Friend #2

[In 1982, Pappy Henderson met with several members of his
old bomber crew during a reunion.  One of these men was
later interviewed.]

It was in his hotel room that he told us the story of the
UFO and about his part.  All we were told by Pappy is that
he flew the plane to Wright Field.  He definitely mentioned
the bodies, but I don't recall any details except that they
were small and different.  I was skeptical at first, but
soon saw that Pappy was quite serious.



6  PROSAIC EXPLANATIONS



6.1  Weather Balloon

*  If what crashed was a weather balloon, there would have
been no need for secrecy.  According to the testimony,
military officers admonished subordinates and civilians not
to talk about what they saw.

*  If what crashed was a weather balloon, Major Marcel would
have recognized the material Mac Brazel showed him as
weather balloon material, and would not have journeyed far
out on a remote sheep ranch with an officer from the Counter
Intelligence Corps to examine the crash site.

*  The wreckage described by Marcel and others was too
voluminous, and spread out over too large an area, to have
been the wreckage of a crashed weather balloon.

*  There is no reason the Army would transport the wreckage
of a weather balloon from the remote desert outside Corona
first to Roswell AAF, then on to Fort Worth AAF.

*  Most of the witnesses who saw or handled the wreckage
would have recognized the remains of a crashed weather
balloon.



6.2  Secret Rocket or Airplane

*  If what crashed was any kind of secret military
apparatus, one would expect at least some of the pieces to
have recognizable letters or numbers on them.  Many of the
witnesses say that some of the wreckage bore a very strange
kind of writing, but not one witness has said that any of
the wreckage bore any recognizable symbols.

*  If what crashed was any kind of secret military
apparatus, the Army would have said simply, "This is secret,
and no more questions will be answered, period."  The Army
would not have concocted the flying saucer and weather
balloon stories.  In 1947, Americans were less skeptical
about the motives of their government, and the people of New
Mexico, including journalists and other civilians, were
dependent for their livelihood on secret military projects.

*  If what crashed was any kind of secret military
apparatus, the Army would not have waited for a rancher to
inform them of the crash before sending military personnel
to examine the wreckage, five days after the crash.

*  Rockets and airplanes that were secret in 1947 are not
secret now.  If what crashed was a secret rocket or
airplane, it would have been revealed as such years ago.
(Incredibly, the Army is sticking to its weather balloon
story, even though nobody believes it anymore.)

*  By July 1947, rockets launched from White Sands were
fitted with self-destruct mechanisms so that an errant
rocket could be destroyed before leaving the test range.
The Corona crash site is about 75 miles from the nearest
border of the test range.

*  They did not fly secret airplanes in New Mexico in 1947.
There was plenty of room for that in California, where all
the secret airplane projects were carried on.

*  There is no reason the Army would transport the wreckage
of a crashed rocket or airplane to Fort Worth AAF, then to
Wright AAF in Ohio.  The wreckage of a secret rocket would
stay in New Mexico, and the wreckage of a secret airplane
would be sent back to California, if anywhere.

*  Most of the witnesses who saw or handled the wreckage
would have recognized the remains of a crashed rocket or
airplane.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Allen Coody)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hopi Indians and ET
Date: 14 Jan 1993 20:17:30 GMT
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The previous posting under this title shows what some call
"The White Bear Fredericks Pattern".
--
Robert A. Coody (Juan de los Caballeros)           +
Flagstaff, AZ                                +  +  +  +  +
               "Quien Vivira, Vera"                +
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From: [e-mail] (Eur van Andel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The basis of all alien sightings
Summary: People _want_ to see aliens.
Keywords: People, Aliens, etc.
Message-ID: <eur.727019353@dutncp8>
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Ripped this from alt.folklore.ghost-stories

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     I know a researcher here who is the epitome of a skeptic.  For the last
little while he has begun to work on the aspects of the paranormal.  His
theory states that all paranormal experience can be attributed to temporal
lobe stimulation by magnetic field etc.. etc...
     In recent studies, he has placed human subjects into a "tank".  This
is , simply, a room that is constructed to be as free from stimuli as
possible.  ie. it is soundproof, dull and so on.
     Once the subjects are in this room an electromagnetic helmet is placed
on their heads and they are left alone.  The researcher, from a remote area,
can change the intensity of the stimulation of the brain's temporal lobes
by changing the magnetic field in the helmet.  People have come out of that
tank swearing that while they were in there, they spoke to dead relatives,
had epiphanies and were abducted by aliens.  The experiments are tightly
controlled and designed.  So, it would seem that there is scientific evidence
to suggent that all supernatural occurences are merely figments of our
imagination (or at least of our temporal lobes.)

                        John

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I thought all along: alien visitors are being seen because
a visit from a different solar system is scientifically very, very interesting.
It would shed some light on subjects we can never fully investigate because of our
human nature, like: religion, sociology, evolution, etc.

I am NOT implying that we cannot investigate these fields or that we haven't done
so, but the mere fact that we are humans, cq a species evolved on this earth
does imply that we have to take a lot for granted.

How very nice would it be when some grey skinned :-) aliens landed here and
showed us that life doesn't have to
be DNA-based, that some of them believe in some form of God too, that all their
laws of physics and mathematical axioma's are the same as ours, etc.

Conclusion: Aliens are seen because people _want_ them to exist.
Heaven and Hell are seen because people want to go there.

( A short note about near-death-experiences: ever tried to slowly turn your
computer power voltage down? Be prepared for some weird things on your screen!
So why shouldn't a brain behave very strange when deprived of oxygen? )

Something I didn't figure out yet: _we_ know why we want to meet aliens.
But do the stupid farmers/bimbo's/John_Winstons know?

They are abducted all the time :-)


Another thing: we will not fly to aliens for a long time. If there is any meeting
with grey/blue/pink creatures, they will have to come to us. So they will be
far more advanced than we are, especially in interplanetary travel. Seems to me
that the UFO beleivers got this far. However, in the history of this planet,
there have been several clashes between different cultures (both man).
In _all_ cases the lesser developed culture was destroyed. Do we really want that?

We might end up like the North-American Indians. :-(

Though the chance that greys carry diseases that might affect us is very small :-)


--
eur  [e-mail]
--
eur  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Iceland Boy!)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride) writes:

>[e-mail] (The_Doge) writes:
>>     But what *I* want to know is: howcum the Ferengi developed space
>> travel and transporters and all that neat stuff without *ever* learning
>> anything about basic dentistry?

>The Ferengi probably didn't develop space travel and most of the other
>advanced technologies that they possess.  They probably stole them
>from some other race that visited them, just as we will do (or may
>already have done) when given the opportunity.

>The Ferengi are, basically, lazy bastards who would find it easier to
>steal than to conduct serious scientific research.


  Interesting note:  According to one of Paul Tsongas's campaign leaflets,
the word used for "white person" in Ethiopia used to be Ferengi (long
before ST:TNG).  Sort of accurate, considering what imperialism did for
the peoples of Africa.  (oh, p.s.  the word now {according to Tsongas,
of course} is actually Tsongi!)


--  Iceland Boy!  Defender of Hot Springs and Icelandic Food!

[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Charlie Hattendorf)
Subject: Re: Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 22:46:59 GMT
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[e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>
>> So I saw Steve's .sig
>>
>> I guess this is directed to Steve, but I wanted to do it publicly:

<stuff deleted>

>think this would make them look or behave identically. Look at studies of
>identical twins. They do have in many cases many ideas the same and behave
>similarly. As they get older these similarities seem to decrease.

Steve: I remember vaguely a study done within the last year and 1/2 on
identical twins, separated at birth which were not aware of one anothers
existence. Understandably, there were not many test subjects available...
I believe @40 pairs total were in the group. Results indicated mannerisms
or behavior characteristics were amazingly similar, like 2 guys marrying
a woman with the same first name, calling their pet by the same name, crushing
their beer-can (!) in the same manner, etc. The test conductor stated that
"about 70% of our behavior is pre determined genetically" (!) Personally,
I'm for free-will, I would imagine more info is available in a psych or
bio newsgroup. Also, isn't some genetic study done to eliminate disease?
    I shudder to think of parents in the future ordering children to some spec
"Should Junior have blond or black hair, math wiz or jock?" etc.
    Here's to the 30% !


>Steve
>--
>(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
>Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
>Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
>Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]

*    Charlie Hattendorf       Realtime Computer support -       /|            *
* Technical Representative         While you wait!             /-|MIGA works. *
*  619-939-9252 NWC/ECRD    "Build a system any fool can use, and only a fool *
* internet: [e-mail]    would want to use it" Murphy's corollaries *
* views expressed are mine(d) alone.     "There's AU in 'dem 'thar hills..."  *
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Jan 93 11:07:41 GMT
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Diane Atkinson ([e-mail]) wrote:
> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:


> >2) Crop circles. All are hoaxes. Speaking as a hoaxer myself, I've found that
> >the "experts" cannot tell a natural circle from a manmade one, so any research
> >would be pointless.

> "All are hoaxes" is a rather sweeping statement.  I can honestly say there
> are those that *are* hoaxes, but there are those where it is not so easily
> dismissed.  I took a class here at UNO, and UFOs as well as crop circles
> were discussed.
> The information that was presented was scientific research of grasses and
> grains affected by the circles.  Hoaxes were obvious, as crops were
> damaged and broken--no further growth occurred.
> However, oddities were present in some circles, namely, grasses were not
> broken and kept growing long after the formation of the circle.  These grasses
> could even later be harvested.  Also noted were oddities occurring on growth
> nodes of the grains that could be replicated--but only if stuck in a microwave
> and nuked.  There is no known technology that can cause sudden heat induced
> changes in plant growth nodes while at the same time causing a bending but
> not breaking of the same grasses.
> So it is unknown exactly what causes these sorts of crop circles.  I just
> don't think all are people circling around with a board.  That just couldn't
> cause the above listed oddities.  Some have said that the heat from a UFO, as
> well as its strange sort of effects on gravity could cause such oddities.
> A theory, but not proven.


You may be right, but my main point was that the "experts" kept on saying that
man-made circles were natural, or "not produced by anything on this planet" to
quote one of them, therefore you cannot make up any theory until you can
distinguish man-made circles from natural circles.

The Cursor.
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Don Allen ([e-mail]) wrote:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
> >I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
> >some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
> >

> >3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
> >is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
> >claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two). I mean, the
> >star, not a planet).

> Gag! Calling Tim Good's book "Alien Liason"  'respectable' is pure bullshit.

> And _Bob Oechsler_ is a TOTAL Bullshit artist..I HAVE talked with him.

> Do some more research..the more I see about "respectable experts"..the
> more of a skeptic I become..the biggest horseshit artists today are
> Bill Cooper, Stanton Friedman (he actually BUYS Anderson's story about
> Anderson being a "witness" at the 2nd Roswell crash..pure crap..ask Kevin
> Randle and Don Ecker of UFO Magazine.

> But the _biggest_ BS artist of the year award must go to Budd Hopkins
> and his infamous "Linda case".

> Listen..read everything you can..and remain skeptical. Ask HARD questions,
> accept nothing at face value..especially the pronouncements of so-called
> "experts". Accept nothing on "faith". I've been in this for well over 12
> years and question _everything_ .

I take it you're a skeptic then. If you've read Tim's previous book, "Above Top
Secret", he reveals the worldwide cover-up of the UFO phenomenon by refering to
UFO sightings and also BACKING THEM UP with released, albeit partially censored,
documents from the USAF. It is on the basis of this book that I was convinced of
Tim's reliability in the UFO field, and is also why I respect Bob Oecshler since
Tim says he doesn't write anything that he doesn't believe in without saying so.
As for the other people you mentioned, I personally have never heard of them.

The Cursor.
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Stokker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 18:01:40 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Lynch) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>  [text deleted]
>|>
>|> Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?
>|>
>
>
>Don't stop!!  You and a few others are the only reason I still subscribe
>to this group.  Your posts are sane and informative, and always interesting.
>I appreciate the time and trouble you must go to to post some of the
>lengthy articles I've seen here lately.
>
>I use xrn to read the news, and the poster's name is shown next to the
>article title in the previewer.  I weed out most of the garbage here by
>simply homing in on your name and a few others.
>
>
>Mike Lynch
>[e-mail]

Actually, I weed everybody _but_ JW out.  I think he's hilarious.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:37050 alt.paranormal:6313 alt.conspiracy:21898 alt.alien.visitors:12642
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Channeling Star Trek Super Tech From Future?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 03:33:07 GMT
Lines: 52


16. Fixed-point renormalization group equation.
A scaled family of spaces Vq is constructed from V. Define the dilation
operator D

Df(t) = (2^-1/2)f(t/2)    (133)

D stretches f by a factor of 2 without altering its norm.

D S = S^2 D         (134a)

D^-1 S^2 = S D^-1   (134b)

D^q S = S^2^q D^q   (134c)

Vq = D^q V          (135)

An orthonormal basis for Vq is

f[q]n = D^q S^n f(t) = 2^-q/2 f(2^-qt - nT)  (136)

Vq has functions containing information only up to scale 2^q from samples
at tn = 2^qnT. Note that Vq+1 is a subspace of Vq.

*This sort of thing happens in Ken Wilson's "renormalization group" of the
Ising model, for example. It is also a feature of fractal analysis. (JS)

The pixel function must obey a kind of "fixed point" renormalization group
equation for self-consistency (JS)

f = D^-1 h(S)f = D^-1 S(n)[hnS^nf]    (137)

for a unique set {hn}.

*I add, an amusing and curious synchronicity that such an important
equation for coupling constants in renormlaization group is numbered at the
reciprocal of the fine structure constant! No doubt, Saul Paul Sirag and
Robert Anton Wilson would find in this the machinations of time-travelling
dwarves from Zeta Rediculi in our future. Skeptics will pooh pooh this as
the human tendency to create meaning out of random chance.

Since f has compact support, the set is finite, so that h(S) is a finite
polynomial. The h(S) operator averages while D^-1 "data compresses". The
pixel function is a "fixed point" of this dual action of spreading and
compression.  The fixed point equation

Df = h(S)f   (137')

says that the dilated pixel Df is a linear superposition of undilated pixel
translates fn.

from the Sarfatti Lectures in the New Physics - section on Wavelets
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The basis of all alien sightings
Keywords: People, Aliens, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Jan 93 02:40:33 GMT
References: <eur.727019353@dutncp8>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 173


    [e-mail] (Eur van Andel) writes:
    Ripped this from alt.folklore.ghost-stories...

Here's a couple of other messages ripped from a.f.g-s that followed
the original:

                  ----------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Neuropsychological basis of Ghosts
Date: 14 Jan 93 18:45:34 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

[e-mail] writes:

>     I know a researcher here who is the epitome of a skeptic.  For the last
>little while he has begun to work on the aspects of the paranormal.  His
>theory states that all paranormal experience can be attributed to temporal
>lobe stimulation by magnetic field etc.. etc...

Since you're posting from Laurentian University, I can only assume
you're referring to Dr. Michael Persinger.  He is HARDLY the "epitome
of a skeptic".

I am one of the few researchers who has bothered to publish rebuttals
to his work.  Most of the geophysicists and psychologists I am in
contact with are content to ignore him in the hope he will go away.

Persinger has published dozens (hundreds by now?) articles suggesting
that tectonic strain emissions affect the temporal lobe and as a
consequence, people report seeing UFOs, ghosts, monsters and have
religious visions.  His critics have shown that many of his studies
used contaminated or otherwise bad data to support his contention.

In several cases, he showed "conclusively" that UFO sightings were
statistically correlated with small earthquakes several months before
OR after the sighting and as far away as 700 kilometres (!) from the
sighting.  The data he used consisted of raw UFO sighting reports, over
90% of which were shown to be misidentifications of airplanes, stars,
etc.

Given this and many other examples, his application of the theory to
the paranormal is not very reassuring and impressive.

His work was also discussed in sci.skeptic several times.  If anyone
is interested, I will try and dig out the references.

Nice try.

>     In recent studies, he has placed human subjects into a "tank".  This
>tank swearing that while they were in there, they spoke to dead relatives,
>had epiphanies and were abducted by aliens.  The experiments are tightly
>controlled and designed.  So, it would seem that there is scientific evidence
>to suggent that all supernatural occurences are merely figments of our
>imagination (or at least of our temporal lobes.)

That may be true, but Persinger's work doesn't support that theory, and
it is hardly scientific evidence.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada


                  ---------

From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.ghost-stories
Subject: Skeptic Professor
Date: 14 Jan 93 00:52:21 GMT


One of the first rules that we learn when we study science is not to
automatically assume that an event is the result of one
cause-and-effect relationship.  Creating an event in one manner should
not be interpreted as the only way in which to create an event.  Since
I have not read the Dr. Persinger's work relating to this topic, I can
not comment on his methodology, technique, nor conclusions.  I can,
however, question John's statement "...So, it would seem that there is
scientific evidence to suggest that all supernatural occurences are
merely figments of our imagination (or at least of our temporal
lobes.)".  I can take a half-filled, clear waterglass and tip it from
side to side, but it would be rediculous to then discount the laws of
gravity and phisics and to say that the effects of waves must actually
be caused by the earth being tipped back and forth.  After all, that
is what I have done with my glass, isn't it?  I have now disproved
physics.

My point is not to argue about the laws of gravity, but rather to
point out that we can not assume "A + B + is the only way to get C".
There is too much that we DON'T know about this world to be so
confident in ourselves.

Science is the art of proving one fact and disproving others.  In
order for John's statement to be correct, he would also have to
disprove other theories of paranormal activity.  That is the basis of
science.

I wish you well in your studies,

Theresa

                   --------

Here's a list of some works by Mr. Persinger I found in our local
library catalog (just FYI):

    1974 -    "ELF and VLF Electormagnetic Field Effects" (as
        editor)

    1977 - "Space-Time Transients and unusual events"  (This must
        be work Chris referred to)... Rasmussen's "UFO
        Literature" has this to say about it.  "Results of a
        computer study of 6,060 "Fortean Events" -- a variety
        of odd, unusual phenomena including 1,242 UFO reports
        -- sorted into categories of space, time, and nature
        of the report, with the authors concluding there are
        similarities between Fortean events and UFO sightings
        in terms of density and distribution.  Many UFO
        reports, they suggest, may be generated by human
        perceptual reactions to high electrical fields
        producing low-level ionization of the air."  [In other
        words, if you cannot explain something, blame it on
        the observer.  -CWM]


    1980 - "Transendental Meditation and cult mania"

    1980 - "The Weather Matrix and Human Behavior"

    1987 - "Neurospychological bases of God Beliefs" (This must be
        what John's original post was about)


... in any case,

    Conclusion: Aliens are seen because people _want_ them to
    exist.


... I might turn this around and say that the reason you do _not_ see
aliens is because you do _not_ want to see them.  Can you prove me
wrong?  Certainly not, because I can always attack the observer.  Cuts
both ways, donchaknow.

    ( A short note about near-death-experiences: ever tried to
    slowly turn your computer power voltage down? Be prepared for
    some weird things on your screen!  So why shouldn't a brain
    behave very strange when deprived of oxygen? )

... trying to draw a parallel between phospors and neurons is not
really helpful to your case.


    However, in the history of this planet, there have been
    several clashes between different cultures (both man).  In
    _all_ cases the lesser developed culture was destroyed.

... a misstatement.  The lesser *military-technologically* developed
culture was subsumed (though not necessarily destroyed.)
Technological development is not the sum of a culture, nor is its
military technology - witness the Mongols conquest of China (in which
the more advanced culture in almost every way was conquered by the one
with the better military technique and technology.)  The Roman Empire, it
may be argued, was destroyed by a "lesser culture" only after the
military means to resist deteriorated enough, and not for any
particular other reason.  (And no, I don't want to get into an
argument here about the fall of Rome.)


Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: POP! FIZZZ.... PSI WARS!
Date: 17 Jan 1993 05:27:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


A poster here cites progessor Gordon Mumma(sp?) as stating the
government attempted to enlist his aid in developing electronic
weaponry? My question, where is professor Mumma now? Could he be
interviewed for this newsgroup?

Inquiring minds want to know,
-Steve
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: beliefs
Date: 17 Jan 1993 04:07:04 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) says:

>        BTW, anybody have flying dreams?

Yep, and there good fun too!
When I was younger, I used to float up into the air, but not too high, as I was afraid that the wind
would carry me away.
Now days I'm a bit better at it, I can fly around like a glider with speed and accuracy {using the tips of my
outstreched hands like airlons}

I once read in some book about dreaming {Can't remember the name} that one is more likely to fly when
you are in a good mood {ie, you had a good day} , I believe this as being true, and I have never {repeat never}
associated this with a possible abduction.

But you asked, so I replied.
Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: beliefs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Jan 93 03:52:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 75


    [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:
    Some facts are evident :
    1) people have been seeing unexplained flying objects for
       centuries;

Yes, in the strictest sense.  Of course, some could well have been
meteors or comets.  (Not saying that some weren't other things,
though.)

    2) people have been seeing wierd beings for centuries

... well, yes, but what these are might be is open to debate.

    3) people have complained of being abducted by non-humans for
       centuries

... yes, but these are also open to debate.

    4) modern sightings include radar contacts

... yes, absolutely.  These are the most interesting, and often the
most elusive.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that airports keep
videotapes of radar displays for review, but don't keep them for long.
Could somebody enlighten me?

    5) the government doesn't want to give out all it's
       information publicly

... absolutely, as the results of various FOIA requests have shown.

    6) there are many other life-bearing planets in our galaxy
       (Drake equation)

... well, now, hold on.  The Drake equation:

    N = R * fp * n * f1 * fi * fc * L

(R = new stars every year; fp = fraction of stars with planets; n =
fraction of planets capable of supporting life; f1 = fraction of
planets where life actually originates; fi = fraction of life that is
intelligent/tool-using; fc = fraction of intelligent life where that
communicates over interstellar distances; L = lifetime of such a
technological civilization, just to review)

... is just a guess at the factors involved.  In the collection "First
Contact", edited by Ben Bova and Byron Preiss (NAL Books, 1990), David
Brin suggests at least three new factors:

    V = the velocity an interstellar culture grows into space
        (colonizing along the way)
    Lz = the lifetime of a "zone of colonization"; how long an
        interstellar culture explores in what becomes a
        settled region.
    A = "Approach/avoidance" factor - would another culture
        try to contact us at all?  Would we notice, if they
        tried to contact us in a way we could not recognize?

   Anyway, if *any* factor is 0, then the Drake equation says there
isn't anybody out there for us to talk to.  (For instance, other
technical civilizations may have destroyed themselves -- so L is
small; or they may not wish to contact us yet ("The Prime Directive",
and all that) -- so A is small; etc.  It could be that *we* will be
the first spacefaring race.)  The factors assigned to each factor is a
matter of guesswork, deciding how average our particular solar system
is, and how average a race we are.  If you presume we are a unique
case (or nearly so), then we will be the ones contacting less
developed races, rather than the other way around.  If you presume we
are average, then the galaxy (and other galaxies) are out there.  Even
then, its a big place...

   Anyway, nice post!  (I bet that was more than the rest of you
wanted to hear, eh? :-)

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Neuromancer)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Organization: Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 00:11:58 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I believe you will find that the Ferengi people were thought
>up in the TV series because they have everyone of the bad trates that
>we as humans have (let the buyer beware). The Greys are just the opposite
>of us so mix us together and maybe you'll get some of the good points
>of each coming through.
>John Winston.

Personally, I have no bad trates, and neither do the Ferengi.  I understand
that bad trates start to smell really nasty after about a week or so.  Maybe
Kibo has some trates....

I can't parse the last sentence of John_-_Winston's message.  Could someone
please explain what the hell he/he/it is trying to say?

Please let me know if you see a Ferengi... I have some Silly Putty (TM)
I'd really like to trade for a tonne (metric) or so of gold.  Never seen
any Silly Putty (TM) in the 24th century have you?

Neuromancer
(WOW!  John_-_Winston posted the 73500th message at cup.portal.com!)
--
--------------------- All comments and opinions are my own --------------------
Bryan Fullerton aka Neuromancer                         Computer Variables, Inc
[e-mail]                         155 East Beaver Creek, Unit 27
uunet.ca!comspec!cspace!neuro            Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada L4B 2N2
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rama 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 93 02:37:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 67

Subject: Rama. Part 2.
  This is a continuation of the information given by David, a person who came
in contact with a space lady by the name of Rama. David was the one that
showed Shirley MacLaine around in South America. As of a year ago David was
in prison for some reason that has not been stated.
  So here we go into our story ...As I was having  breakfast after my bath, I
noticed a pickup truck dropping off someone. It was Rama. She'd hitchhiked a
ride to meet me.
  A UFO was waiting for us nearby, she said. I couldn't believe my ears. Today
I was going to take my first ride in a space ship.
  We got into the volkswagen and drove about fifteen minutes toward Huancayo.
We came  to a clearing where she asked me to pull off the road.
  We got out of the car and Rama took me by the arm, leading the way. By then
the rain had let up. As we walked, I saw something that resembled a small
rainbow, very weak in intensity.  She told me this was an electromagnetic
field that surrounds the UFOs completely, thus making them invisible while
standing on the ground. We were no more than twenty-five feet from the craft
and my eyes  didn't see it. After we crossed the electrical frequency, it
came into full view.
  This ship wasn't like the small "vimanas" I'd seen previously. It had the
same form and fotball like shape, but it was much larger. It was metallic
and seemed to have a silverish glow around it. As we approached the vehicle,
which was resting on three metalic legs. Rama asked me to take off my shoes.
I thought about Moses doing the same thing so many years ago on top of Mount
Sinai. Rama explained that since my shoes were wet from the rain, and since
water is a conductor of electricity, this would prevent me from getting a
shock when I went into the ship.
  We were both given a pair of shoes, similar to sandals, made out of heavy
wood. It looked more like cork. We climbed up a metal ladder that descended
from a circular door. As I entered, I experinced a sudden chanxge of
temperature. It was a bit colder than the already cold Andes Mountains. The
sxe kind of feeling one gets when entering an air conditioned building, only
somehow this was stranger.
 Two crew members, about four and a half to five feet tall, greeted us in
silence. They were wearing one piece suits made of a shinning grey material.
 It covered them from head to toe. There was no doubt they were humanoids.
  I began to feel extremely nervous and uncomfortable an almost creepy feeling
even though they were extremely  peaceful in their attitudes. I sensed I was
safe with them, but still the fear of the unknown held me back. As soon as I
advanced two more steps, I came face to face with the crew leader, standing
inside  and oval room about 25 feet in length, 15 to 20 feet wide, with
about a seven foot ceiling. Illumination came from all over the room, a red
glow with a touch of orange.
  The crew leader had a nice face, with a benevolent expression.  He had a
long nose axnd slanted eyes that were elongated and extended around to the
side of his head. I noticed he had no eyelashes and he didn't blink. But
there was definitely eye activity. It took me a little while to figure out
what made those eyes seem so alive. Then I noticed that his  pupils narrowed
and widened as he communicated with me.
  He got up from a triangular chair that was in front of some control panels,
and walked over to receive us. Rama and the crew leader exchanged glances.
It seemed  as though the two of them had planned this visit.  When he looked
at me, I instinctively walked with him toward the control panel. His mouth
tended to be still, but I could hear muffled words and sentences. It sounded
as though he had a heavy accexnt. Sensing that I had difficulty
understanding him, he changed his mode of communication. suddenly, I could
hear his voice speakinxg to me inside my head, the smae as when Rama and I
had our mind to mind chats.
  He showed me around the craft. The instrument panels looked like a console
one would find in a computer room There were port holes all around the craft
and my host told me that we were in an observation UFO, with a crew of four.
Up to this monent, I'd seen only two. By flicking a switch, a screen-like
device lit up and we were able to see outside the spaceship where the other
two crew members were.
End Part 2.
Source of material: Date With the Gods by Charles A. Silva page 334.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 93 02:54:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear Folks: I believe you will find that I meant to say, talked about
worm holes. How about that Mary information was that a bad job I did
in editing it or not. I tried to put it down in a readable form for
two days and then finally figured that the people who wanted to read
it would put forth the effort to figure it out and those how didn't
wouldn't bother.
 I checked with a friend of mine about how much snow was on my property
up on the sides and Mount Shasta and it has had a total of 11 feet of
snow and 6 to 9 feet of snow is still on the ground. We just had about
a 5.1 earthquake here in Calif. in this area yesterday. McCloud which
is near Mt. Shasta was snowed in so bad the National Guard was called
in to bring in supplies. John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Peterson)
Subject: culture clash
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 19:53:49 GMT
Lines: 26

    I have seen references to possible culture clashes with
an alien culture drawing parallels with Native American culture
and the invading White Man Culture. It is true that in most cases
of two cultures clashing where one culture is technologically
more advanced than the other, the less well developed culture
eventually was absorbed or obliterated by the "superior"
culture. Some people have said that this would happen if we
were directly contacted by an alien spacefaring (therefore superior)
culture.
    It seems to me that it is likely that another race of
beings could be FAR superior to us. Like maybe 1,000,000 years
of more evolution or something. In this case, it would not be
two cultures of equivalent beings clashing; more like humans and
chimps (or dogs). We have domesticated the dog, but have we obliterated
the culture of dogs?
    If the space culture did exist, it might be impossible for us
to understand what their motives are. We could still have a relationship,
similar to dogs and men. Dogs know when we are happy, etc. However,
the space people might view our planet as being occupied by wild, thoughtless,
critters that kill and maim for fun. (I almost think that too!) I wouldn't
blame them for their shyness; the alternative is to come in with a stun
gun and keep the wild hairies off.

--
    Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
    Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Subject: NICAP?? Does it still exist?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 22:01:55 GMT
Lines: 11

Listening to some UFO tapes from the 70's the speaker mentioned all thru it
a group called the National Investigations Committe on Aerial Phenomena
(NICAP). Does this group still exist? ANyone have an address?

Thanks

--

      Charles E. Evans | This nation is in decay because we are more
   [e-mail] |  concerned with RIGHTS and LAWS instead of
[e-mail] |             RIGHTS and WRONGS.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 23:22:23 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
>  Last week I had the opportunity to watch the new T.V. series called Star
>Trek: Deep Space Nine. I found it to be very good and I think it will be a
>hit but I love everything about Star Trek.
>  The show is about different people and aliens aboard a space station. The
>commander is Avery Brooks. They do a lot of taking about "wormholes" They
>even have a Ferengi on the show.
>John Winston.

I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.  Granted, the
original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.  And some of the
episodes are rather bland (that can be said about every series).  I'm
curious what will happen with Deep Space Nine, but it looks good at the
start.  But they have more than one Ferengi on the show, a whole slew of
them (I think thats the proper term for a group of Ferengis, a slew...or is
it spelled slough?), incluing a trouble making child who, from what Newsweek
reports (or was it TV Guide) will become friends with the Captian's
impressionable son.  This social/personal stuff will irritate those who
think sci-fi should be all phasers and torpedos, but that's the key to Star
Trek's success.
  -- ciao,
   Scott E., U. of Minnesota
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circl
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Jan 93 16:13:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Organization: Almac BBS Ltd. [phone]
Lines: 85

In response to Anna Anderson:

Interesting meeting #117

I met a wild-eyed looking geek on a train coming back from Salisbury
last year; we fell into conversation (well, he smelled my exotic
cigarette and beamed in on me, to be truthful), whereupon it
transpired that he had an interest in crop circles, Dr. Tesla &c.
&c. Here is the gist of something he told me:

When the "Crop Circle Hoax" story was published by many UK
newspapers, in 1990, one paper in particular gave a strange credit
to the story of Doug'n'Dave, the hoaxers. The _Today_ newspaper
credited the copyright to "MBF"; subsequent enquiries by
cereologists returned a host of conflicting explanations for the
meaning of MBF - in short, the paper was a bit embarassed. Further
enquiries reveal MBF to be a rather covert, possibly government
funded company whose speciality is electromagnetics (This is all
verbatim from my travelling companion). Theory has it that someone
(MBF) is being paid by govt to experiment in Tesla scalar wave
technology. Hence the test results, aka crop circles. Possibly of
interest (this is left-field): In the film "2001", the computer was
called HAL because these letters precede IBM - a subtle jest. Do the
same to MBF and the result is LAE. Is there an electromagnetics
company or research institute with the initials "LAE"? (Wild I know,
but...).

On the topic of crop circles, there was a meeting last year in the
West of England to see if anyone could reproduce one of these
things. Several nights were also spent watching various wheatfields,
with some interesting observations. Apparently "genuine" circles
formed in the presence of orange or white ball-shaped lights, and it
is said an 80' diameter UFO was seen, from which orange balls
emanated. There is a chap who was there who is a decent and reliable
cove by name of Marshall Dudley; he published some statistics on
circle formation after these observations (taken over 4 weeks).
These he subsequently posted on the ILink network.

Interestingly, the hoaxes seem to be perpetrated mainly at weekends,
while the genuine articles appear between 10pm and 2am BST during
week nights. If they are man made, it's a funny time of day to be at
work. However, if they _are_ created remotely by some kind of Tesla
wave pair-production energy, then they could be done in the
afternoons from a site in the Western United States, taking time
differences into account. This is, of course, purely speculative.

What tickles me is that the real things seem to have been designed
using AutoCad or similar, which leads me to suspect that there is
some truth in the electromagnetic experiment theory; after all,
they've only been appearing in quantity since 1980, and if you need
computers to control the projection of such stuff and you haven't
got a NASA sized budget, then 1980 would be about the earliest date
when this might be feasible (with the introduction of the 80X86
chips and cheaper computing). Again, it should be remembered that
there are many defence research establishments in a relatively small
area of the South West of England where these things appear.

Unanswered qeustions:

1) Why do these phenomena only appear in a few counties of South
West England? Do they appear anywhere else?

2) Why only in wheatfields?

3) How is it that there are no tracks or footprints leading to the
circles, and is there any connection with cattle mutilations which
also have no tracks or disturbances in their vicinity?

4) What is the significance of the timings of genuine circle
formation?

5) What is the significance of the non-random patterns, eg squares,
circles, concentric rings, dumb-bells, mandelbrots etc?

6) What is the nature of the orange or white ball-lights seen moving
around forming circles?

7) Why is there no "official" (government) comment on these
phenomena?

 Andy ~ london ~ uk                        [e-mail]
                                           [e-mail]
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #112 . If code was meant to be portable, it would have wheels.

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From: [e-mail] (John Fleming)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Jan 93 21:54:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride) writes:
>[e-mail] (The_Doge) writes:
>>     But what *I* want to know is: howcum the Ferengi developed space
>> travel and transporters and all that neat stuff without *ever* learning
>> anything about basic dentistry?
>
>The Ferengi probably didn't develop space travel and most of the other
>advanced technologies that they possess.  They probably stole them
>from some other race that visited them, just as we will do (or may
>already have done) when given the opportunity.
>
>The Ferengi are, basically, lazy bastards who would find it easier to
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
steal than to conduct serious scientific research.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  !!!!!!!!????????? How dare you utter such false and defamatory statements
against an alien race simply because they are fictional and have unpleasant
teeth!

                                John Fleming
                                (sticking up for those who do not exist to
                                 defend themselves)
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Weather Report.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 93 16:17:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Weather Watchers: The weather reports here in sunny Northern
Caif. for the last week has been, floods, blizzards, earthquakes,
funnel clouds (any other place they call them tornadoes) and more
to come. It's got to where we have National  Reports on T.V. with
all sorts of forcasts. As they say in Hawaii something about be
happy.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 00:31:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 2

Dear People: I believe you will find those trates were traits.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Thanks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 93 16:45:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I would like to thank Betty for her work in putting
out this material. It must have been a lot of work.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Kepley)
Subject: Re: Weather Report.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Adm)
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 01:17:51 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Weather Watchers: The weather reports here in sunny Northern
>Caif. for the last week has been, floods, blizzards, earthquakes,
>funnel clouds (any other place they call them tornadoes) and more
>to come. It's got to where we have National  Reports on T.V. with
>all sorts of forcasts. As they say in Hawaii something about be
>happy.
>John Winston.

What...is this just for our information or what?

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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Date: 18 Jan 1993 00:33:02 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) says:
>
>Peter T. ([e-mail]) wrote:
>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (General Access) says:
>> >
>> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>> Bla bla bla....
>> >>The End.
>> >>John Winston.,
>> >
>> >
>> >what does this guy take?  DMA??
>
>> "I think he did a little too much LDS in the sixties " {Kirk}
>> or
>> He's a dis-information agent.
>
>> There my two favorites.
>> Peter T.
>
>
>Or even LSD.
>
>The Cursor.

Ha! caught you!
You are obviously not a trekkie fan, don't assume by that statement that I'm a great one myself.
In the Star Trek movie, where Kirk and buddies go back in time to earth 198x, Kirk while trying to explain the
behaviour of Spock to a young woman says: "He was part of the free speech movement at Berkley back in
the sixtys, I think he did a little too much LDS" . Then every body in the theater realising he meant LSD goes
ha ha ha.{actually I watched it on video}.

Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Past.
Date: 18 Jan 1993 00:44:53 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (BRIAN JEREMIAH SULLIVAN) says:
>
>
>Who are we and why do they pick us?
Presumably technology wise, we are not in a position to say no.
Its easier to pick on a race, the majority of which don't beleive that you exist, than to pick on one
that migh hit you back.

Or looking at a different perspective, why assume that they ONLY picked us?

Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 18 Jan 1993 00:53:48 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec) says:
>
>
>In Message-ID: <[e-mail]> John_-_Winston writes:
>>   Last week I had the opportunity to watch the new T.V. series called Star
>> Trek: Deep Space Nine. I found it to be very good and I think it will be a
>> hit but I love everything about Star Trek.
>>   The show is about different people and aliens aboard a space station. The
>> commander is Avery Brooks. They do a lot of taking about "wormholes" They
>> even have a Ferengi on the show.
>> John Winston.
>
>Get a clue John... this show has been so hyped up that everyone in the
>known (and unknown) universe tuned in weeks ago... besides, how does one
>"take" about a wormhole. You can't take them anywhere. If you tried to
>touch one, your body would immediately be SUCKed into the inter-
>dimensional vortex to re-emerge either thousands of parsecs away or at
>the Men's Room at your local McDonalds.
>- Mike

Question: Is this just an episode from "the next generation" or perhaps a seperate telemovie?

Secondly, I think JW may have made a spelling mistake, put an "l" into "taking" and it makes much more sense.
{ie "talking"}

Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Erich von Daeniken has a new TV show in Germany
Date: 18 Jan 1993 01:09:23 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) says:

>3) they'll come back.  EvD says it would be not serious (right word?) to
>   speculate about when this could be.

(right word?), I do not know ! It depends on what you are trying to say.
Try putting in brackets a few other words  you think might be similar.

>Astronomer Carl Sagan, who was misquoted in one of the first EvD books:
>"The most friendly thing I can say about him is that he ignores archaeological
>science.  Every time he sees a thing he doesn't understand he attributes it to
>extraterrestrial beings, and since he does understand almost nothing, he sees
>the evidence for extraterrestrial beings everywhere on this planet."
>(translated from English to German and back)

Did Carl Sagan say this about EvD, or did EvD say this about Carl Sagan?
ie:Does the text above describe Carl Sagan, or EvD?

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Date: 18 Jan 1993 01:16:26 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>Dear Ferengi Lovers and Haters: It might be good to go back and find
>out exactly what Data said about the Feringi. I think he said that they
>were similar to the Yankee Traders and embody most of the negative
>attributes of the human race, or something to that effect.
>John Winston.

It was Commander Riker , not Data.

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: POP! FIZZZ.... PSI WARS!
Date: 18 Jan 1993 02:51:09 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Crocker) writes:
>
>A poster here cites progessor Gordon Mumma(sp?) as stating the
>government attempted to enlist his aid in developing electronic
>weaponry? My question, where is professor Mumma now? Could he be
>interviewed for this newsgroup?
Finger [e-mail] to get his email address.
--
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

"Ya can talk all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"

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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Subspace communication for Star Fleet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 02:34:03 GMT
Lines: 9


*Recall it is the "off-diagonal" unitarity of the time-evolution of
orthogonal in Hilbert space beyond spacetime that supports the Einstein
barrier in spacetime preventing faster-than-light quantum connection
communication in standard quantum mechanics - even though the measuring
process and the arrow of time are "non-unitary". The "subspace
communicator" of Star Fleet tunnels through the unitarity barrier allowing
communications with no delay over arbitrary spacetime intervals between
sender nd receiver.
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From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Future Physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 12:16:01 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 18

[e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:

> You post reminded me that that in a future life I should travel back
> in time and give myself a hand.  What me worry?  I'm my own
> guardian angel.
>
Well now you say that, why don't you just disproof Sarfatti's conjectures
instead of attempting to be funny.

Greetings -Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (Author)                      Stycx BBS [phone]
The responsibility for chance...lies within us. We must begin with ourselves,
teaching ourselves not to close our minds prematurely to the novel,
the suprising, the seemingly radical.                        -Alvin Toeffler


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From: [e-mail] (Jim Atwell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aussie! UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 20:01:00
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 23

To all those kind and interested enough to relpy to my original
post.

Thanks for your encouragement. I was supprised at the quantity of
sane people we still have reading this group. I will be posting
some Aussie UFO reports here in the near future.

Firsy up will be 1992 in a nut-shell, then reports to date this
year (with a little more detail), then reports as they come to
hand.

Thanks again.

Regards,
          Jim Atwell          |  UFO Research (SA) Inc.
                              |  PO Box 281
          Fidonet             |  Blair Athol SA 5084
          3:800/851           |  Australia
___
 * CRR QWK 1.40 *

 * Origin: Biz-Nice! S.Oz Business BBS! 4 Lines 08-269 7029/7809 (3:800/851)

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Subspace communication for Star Fleet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: rec.arts.startrek.tech,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 06:47:56 GMT
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[to random newsgroups]
In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>*Recall it is the "off-diagonal" unitarity of the time-evolution of
>orthogonal in Hilbert space beyond spacetime that supports the Einstein
>barrier in spacetime preventing faster-than-light quantum connection
>communication in standard quantum mechanics - even though the measuring
>process and the arrow of time are "non-unitary". The "subspace
>communicator" of Star Fleet tunnels through the unitarity barrier allowing
>communications with no delay over arbitrary spacetime intervals between
>sender nd receiver.

You know, I used to fault "Star Trek: The Next Generation" for all those
scenes where Geordi spouts implausible technobabble for several minutes
straight, which can always be summarized as "Captain, I'm going to push
this button to magically make everyone happy, so they've given me this
long speech to distract you from the huge holes in the plot."

Then I learned to just lean back, kick up my heels, and have a good
chuckle.

Mr. Sarfatti obviously is still in the stage where he takes Star Trek
seriously.  I did, too, when I was a screaming nerd in junior high
school.  Clue: IT'S JUST A TV SHOW.
                        -- K.

Xref: icaen alt.religion.kibology:5816 alt.alien.visitors:12669
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: InterZONE Design
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 16:50:46 EST
Lines: 12

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Ferengi Lovers and Haters: It might be good to go back and find
> out exactly what Data said about the Feringi. I think he said that they
> were similar to the Yankee Traders and embody most of the negative
> attributes of the human race, or something to that effect.

Did baseball season start again?  Sheesh...

--
-------------------========================================-------------------
Chris Herborth
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!mizar.cc.umanitoba.ca!bison!draco!kingyopp
From: [e-mail] (marcel scholte)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: vALIDATION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 00:58:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS User)
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]
Lines: 10

Æ
ÿÿûwHATS GOING AROUND HERE  i HAVE MY ECHO OFF AND THE DAM THING IS
ECHOING CHARACTERS BACK TO ME!òžOH WELL.  MABIE YOU CAN FIX THIS.  ABOUT
VALIDATION.  IS THAT IN THE ORDER?«Ûøëyü#²


---
[e-mail] (marcel scholte)
The Draco Unix System [BBS]

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HAM Radio Station N9EUZ, Naperville, IL
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 06:09:08 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec) says:
>>
>>
>>In Message-ID: <[e-mail]> John_-_Winston writes:
>>>   Last week I had the opportunity to watch the new T.V. series called Star
>>> Trek: Deep Space Nine. I found it to be very good and I think it will be a
>>> hit but I love everything about Star Trek.
>>>   The show is about different people and aliens aboard a space station. The
>>> commander is Avery Brooks. They do a lot of taking about "wormholes" They
>>> even have a Ferengi on the show.
>>> John Winston.
>>
>>Get a clue John... this show has been so hyped up that everyone in the
>>known (and unknown) universe tuned in weeks ago... besides, how does one
>>"take" about a wormhole. You can't take them anywhere. If you tried to
>>touch one, your body would immediately be SUCKed into the inter-
>>dimensional vortex to re-emerge either thousands of parsecs away or at
>>the Men's Room at your local McDonalds.
>>- Mike
>
>Question: Is this just an episode from "the next generation" or perhaps a seperate telemovie?
>
>Secondly, I think JW may have made a spelling mistake, put an "l" into "taking" and it makes much more sense.
>{ie "talking"}
>
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Doesn't ANYONE recognize satire when they see it!
OK, how does one "take" a wormhole? (-8  Better...?
- Mike

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13575 alt.alien.visitors:12672 sci.skeptic:37072
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 13:02:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 58

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:

>I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
>social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
>intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.

   Which is a bit like saying that "Gertrude, here, is the furriest
   goldfish in my aquarium".    Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.

   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.


>  Granted, the original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.

   Please restate:  are you saying that 90's standards are better or
   worse than 60's standards?


> And some of the episodes are rather bland (that can be said about every
> series).

   Not to mention every show.


>I'm curious what will happen with Deep Space Nine, but it looks good at the
>start.  But they have more than one Ferengi on the show, a whole slew of
>them (I think thats the proper term for a group of Ferengis, a slew...or is
>it spelled slough?), incluing a trouble making child who, from what Newsweek
>reports (or was it TV Guide) will become friends with the Captian's
>impressionable son.  This social/personal stuff will irritate those who
>think sci-fi should be all phasers and torpedos, but that's the key to Star
>Trek's success.

   The key to Star Trek's success is its ability to successfully
   merchandise its themes and ideas by convincing viewers that
   it offers genuine insight, wit, and meaningful commentary on
   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.

   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
   fiction!


---peter

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From: [e-mail] (Nobody of Importance)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Subspace communication for Star Fleet
Date: 18 Jan 1993 14:05:46 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dumbo.cc.utexas.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
]
]*Recall it is the "off-diagonal" unitarity of the time-evolution of
]orthogonal in Hilbert space beyond spacetime that supports the Einstein
]barrier in spacetime preventing faster-than-light quantum connection
]communication in standard quantum mechanics - even though the measuring
]process and the arrow of time are "non-unitary". The "subspace
]communicator" of Star Fleet tunnels through the unitarity barrier allowing
]communications with no delay over arbitrary spacetime intervals between
]sender nd receiver.

There is a pretty good technobabble description of subspace communications
in the ST:TNG Technical Manual. Since it's also considered 'canon' with
the show you can use it as an explanation.

Hit 'n' now to avoid an obnoxious sig thingie.

Subject: Patrick Chester            |Words to live by:
Age: NOYB                           |"Military action is important to the
Address: A place                    |nation--it is the ground of death and
Email:[e-mail]    |life, the path of survival and destruction
Political Views: Somewhere in orbit |so it is important to examine it."-Sun Tzu
Blackmarks: Politically Incorrect   |Famous Last Words:
(hobbies)   Anime Otaku/Trekker     |--If you cut me down, I will only become
            Technocentric           |more powerful...
            Netrekker (claypigeon)  |--Shhh!! There it is again....
            Whole bunch of -isms    |--Use the bazooka to open the door...
     Won't remove Sun Tzu quote to  |--I cut the red wire...
     make the Greens happy ;)       |--I have a *very* bad feeling about this
--
<***** INSERT LAWSUIT DEFLECTION TEXT*****>

I speak (type actually) for myself only. Even if I did decide to
speak for UT, no one would listen.

Flame away, I don't bleedin' care...
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!news.d.umn.edu!ub.d.umn.edu!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the Einstein conspiracy (TM)??
Date: 18 Jan 1993 08:24:32 -0600
Organization: University of Confused Thought
Lines: 12
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu


Previously [e-mail] (Isaac Rabinovitch) wrote:
[Einstein conspiracy theory debate deleted]

>You poor ignorant fool.  You are obviously unaware of Murphy's Law of
>Conspiracy:  if there can be a conspiracy, there is a conspiracy!

The corallary to that law is:  If there is a conspiracy, some idiot will
believe in it.

--
Scott Erickson                                         [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13578 alt.alien.visitors:12675 sci.skeptic:37083
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 18 Jan 93 13:02:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 17:31:05 GMT
Lines: 28

Peter,

Get a life.  You are so full of shit, your eyes are brown!

I watch St:TNG and ST:DS9.  Why?  Because its entertaining!  There is
no scientific validity to the show, but we know that.  They do
occasionally try to get some "moralistic" point across, but so what.
It's fun!

People who say that they dont watch tv at all are idiots.  Sure, a
vast majority of the programming is garbage, but the same applies to
most fields of endeavour.  Are you seriously going to tell us that all
books are equally well written?  Why read then?  How about movies,
sports teams, etc.

People like Peter need to learn how to live.

--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | Liberty is to faction what air is to fire,
Field Robotics Center,          | an aliment without which it instantly ex-
Carnegie Mellon University      | pires. But it could not be a less folly to
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | abolish liberty, which is essential to pol-
[phone]                  | itical life, because it nourishes faction
                                | than it would be to wish the annihilation
The opinions expressed are mine | of air, which is essential to animal life,
and do not reflect the official | because it imparts to fire its destructive
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  | agency.  James Madison
or any other organization.      |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13579 alt.alien.visitors:12676 sci.skeptic:37085
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Weather Report.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 18:07:39 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Weather Watchers: The weather reports here in sunny Northern
>Caif. for the last week has been, floods, blizzards, earthquakes,
>funnel clouds (any other place they call them tornadoes) and more

A funnel cloud is what they call the tornado before it touches ground.
Once they touch ground, they are called tornados in N Ca as well. I have
seen a small funnel cloud, it did not descend very far from the cloud,
and eventually dissapated. I was rather hoping to see my first tornado
up close. Then again, I though hurricane weather was great. You can (only)
stand at a 45 degree angle into the wind, and the raindrops stung.

>to come. It's got to where we have National  Reports on T.V. with
>all sorts of forcasts.

>                        As they say in Hawaii something about be
>happy.

This one mystifies and amazes me. Do you mean that something is about
to happen? Or that somebody is about to be happy?

>John Winston.


Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!seq!brownt
From: [e-mail] (brown todd francis)
Subject: Request #2:  PLEASE REPOST MESSAGE ON FREE ENERGY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: free energy
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 19:04:11 GMT
Lines: 2

Please repost lenghty post on FREE ENERGY.  Thank you.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!smurf.sub.org!easix!tron.gun.de!locatech
From: [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: TRON Public Mailbox, Neuss, Germany
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 13:18:00 +0100
Lines: 19

\JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 15.01.93 um 10:05:

\P> Dear Folks: It's good to hear that Kibo is back. I'm glad you got the
\P> tape and it's OK if you want to dub the tape and pass the copies out
\P> to other people. Betty is doing the same things. That comment by
\P> Press2 was the best flame of the year. I really had a big laugh over it.
\P> Keep it up.
\P> John Winston.

Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
Please give me some Information on him...

so long...
                Joerg

--
* Origin : PGP 2.0 public key available upon request.

// THE_DOT V2.05b DEMO //
Xref: icaen rec.arts.startrek.tech:7489 alt.alien.visitors:12679
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From: [e-mail] (Jon Gefaell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.tech,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Subspace communication for Star Fleet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 18:31:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: UVA. FREE Public Access UNIX!
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>[to random newsgroups]
>
>Mr. Sarfatti obviously is still in the stage where he takes Star Trek
>seriously.  I did, too, when I was a screaming nerd in junior high
>school.  Clue: IT'S JUST A TV SHOW.

Likewise, IT'S JUST USENET! :)

Beam me up....
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13580 alt.alien.visitors:12680 sci.skeptic:37089
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 19:47:56 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

|>    I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
|>    the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
|>    masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
|>    when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.

I beg to differ.  "The Simpsons" sometimes rises to a distinctly middle-brow
level.  Any series that can devote a good fraction of an episode to poking
fun at Ayn Rand deserves all the support it can get.

--
Steve Schaffner        [e-mail]
    The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC,
Stanford University, or the DOE.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13581 alt.alien.visitors:12681 sci.skeptic:37090
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci11.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 19:43:24 GMT
Lines: 97

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:

>>I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
>>social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
>>intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.

>   Which is a bit like saying that "Gertrude, here, is the furriest
>   goldfish in my aquarium".    Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
>   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
>   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
>   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.

>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.

I still disagree.  In the last couple of years ST:NG has dealt with medical
ethics, gender issues, parenting, the futility of war, justice (in many
different ways), cultural relativism and multiculturalism, the relation of
technology to science, and to life, and I could go on and on.  As a social
scientist with an interest in physics and science, I can accept some non-
scientific aspects in order to deal with problems of our society in a
differnt context.  The idealism of ST:NG (we can achieve something better)
is also a needed addition to our cynical (and as your posting shows
sometimes hypercritical :> ) culture.  It's also NOT low brow.  I recognize
attempts to deal with different philosophical positions and issues in those
episodes.  Granted, this is done subtely and the average viewer may not
recognize them all the time, but it does have to appeal to a mass market to
stay on the air.  It's an art to do that while saying something, and given
the number of educated people who enjoy it, you are probably somewhat
presumptuous in your comments.  OK, more than somewhat.

>>  Granted, the original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.

>   Please restate:  are you saying that 90's standards are better or
>   worse than 60's standards?

Much worse.  The role of women, minorities and the ability to deal with
social issues was very difficult in the sixties.  In fact, many
controversial ideas of Gene Roddenberry (dealing with racism and sexism) for
the original show were nixed by studio execs.  I'm sure this still happens
with the new shows, but the opportunities have expanded greatly.

>> And some of the episodes are rather bland (that can be said about every
>> series).
>
>   Not to mention every show.

Only if you don't think about them and just want to sit there and be
entertained.  Then it will be bland.

>   The key to Star Trek's success is its ability to successfully
>   merchandise its themes and ideas by convincing viewers that
>   it offers genuine insight, wit, and meaningful commentary on
>   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
>   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
>   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
>   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.

And unsubstantiated criticism probably works in this culture too.  You're
just labeling it, you're not explaining why you say these things.  I think
that perhaps you don't watch it, and you're simply reacting to a
stereotype.  Or perhaps you lack the ability to see that your idea of
intellect may be different from someone elses.  I am perfectly willing to
accept that very intelligent people don't like Star Trek or TV.  People have
different tastes and ways of enjoying things.  But if you say that real
intellect requires having your tastes and your view on things (and all who
don't are simply being misled by flattery) you're demonstrating extreme
intolerance.  Since tolerance is a theme in ST:NG, that probably helps
explain why you don't like the show.

>   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
>   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>   fiction!

Perhaps the average viewer.  But I've read many diverse subjects, and while
classical Greek literature and the bible and SHakespeare are good, fiction
doesn't stop being good just because it becomes modern.  Shakespeare was
criticized in his day for appealing to the masses and lacking intellect as
well.  Also, many modern issues aren't dealt with in those classics.
Furthermore, TV is also a form of art.  Just like many plays are rather bad
and die out, so do many TV shows.  Some live on, and for TV, Star Trek is
one because it deals with philosophical issues.  Your above paragraph smacks
again of intellectual arrogance and lack of tolerance.  Furthermore, I could
give some very critical remarks about especially the Bible and Greek
classical literature, but that would be another subject.

>---peter

- Scott
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 17:17:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>    I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>    the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>    masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>    when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>

[other TV flaming deleted for sake of bandwidth]


While I basically agree that the technical insight of STrek
is practically null, I would not say it's total bullshit.
Look, we have a ENTERTAINING media here, and if you try and put
nothing but very profound or subtle thinking into it, nobody will
listen.
Still, some producers think they can make something a little more
than mindless soaps. SOME STrek shows were very good, IMHO.
As for the Simpsons, they are definitly funny, and make a very
good (and sometimes quite subtle - watch closely and you'll see)
social satire.


In fact, this raises the question: how to put more "intelligent"
thinking into TV ? It seems possible, as proved by BBC, for example.


JM.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13584 alt.alien.visitors:12683 sci.skeptic:37092
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>Peter,
>
>Get a life.  You are so full of shit, your eyes are brown!

  This is the best insult you could come up with?

>I watch St:TNG and ST:DS9.  Why?  Because its entertaining!  There is
>no scientific validity to the show, but we know that.

  We didn't ask why YOU watch it, did we?   Your emotional outburst
  of a posting only serves to reinforce my claims about the reading
  skills/habits of TV watchers . . .  I WAS RESPONDING TO A POST
  IN WHICH THE OTHER POSTER DESCRIBED STAR TREK AS "INTELLECTUALLY
  STIMULATING"!


>People who say that they dont watch tv at all are idiots.  Sure, a
>vast majority of the programming is garbage, but the same applies to
>most fields of endeavour.  Are you seriously going to tell us that all
>books are equally well written?  Why read then?

  Fortunately, in the case of books I can use reviews and choice of
  authors and subject matter to get a high rate of "hits" when
  I'm seeking quality.   In all my years of mindless channel surfing
  (yes, I was a TV addict) I hardly *ever* saw anything of real
  quality.   I'm not saying it's not out there; but it's so RARE
  that it required wasting INCREDIBLE amounts of time, wading
  through amazing amounts of poop to find it.   I may not like
  *everything* that our civilization deems "great literature" but
  I wouldn't go wrong too often if I just stuck with that.   And
  I can do the equivalent of "channel surfing" in a bookstore -
  reading snatches of dialogue or descriptive prose until I find
  something good or intriguing.  In a decent (say Barnes & Noble)
  size bookstore in a half-hour of doing that I can find several
  good books.  In an EVENING of channel surfing on TV I usually
  couldn't find ONE program that wasn't for complete idiots.

  It's HARD to do good TV.  A decent author can usually get someone
  to publish him, even if it's a small art publisher.  But getting
  a TV show on requires buy-in at many levels of a huge corporations,
  and then a cast of actors, direction, cinematography, sound,
  scripting, set design, etc.  There are all kinds of technical
  restrictions in putting decent pictures on a tiny, low-res,
  4:3 NTSC image.  And there are any number of restrictions based
  on time, censorship rules, adverstiser's ideas of who their
  markets are, pressure groups that the network doesn't want to
  offend, keeping continuity with earleier or later episodes or
  not killing off "regular" characters, or the desire to appeal
  to a mass market.  ANY ONE OF THESE can mess up a show, and usually
  does.  It's so INCREDIBLY constrained that it's a wonder any
  TV show in history is any good.  But if *by some miracle* a good
  program survives all that, there's the constant interruptions
  of advertisements every 12 minutes, at least on the commercial
  stations.


>   How about movies,

  I don't go to movies very often; I went to one last year with my
  wife.  Sometimes I rent videos to watch if I have a lot of bills
  to pay or balance my checkbook, or do other boring stuff, so
  there's something to occupy my mind.  Usually stand-up comedy.
  And one nice thing about renting is that there's no advertising.

>             sports teams, etc.

  I play volleyball, I xc-ski, I hike, swim, run, etc.  Why should
  I waste my time watching *other* people having more fun than I'm
  having, instead of going out and having fun myself?


>People like Peter need to learn how to live.

  Excuse me?  You call passively watching OTHER people doing things
  "living"?   Star Trek isn't "living".  Why don't you go out and
  explore "strange new worlds" in real life?   You don't need a
  starship -- the *real* world is as fascinating, strange, and new
  as anything they can dream up on TV.


---peter





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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 19:09:00 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, Christopher Schmidt writes

>                     ROSWELL TESTIMONY
                        .
                        .
                      . . .
                       ...
                        .

>(Incredibly, the Army is sticking to its weather balloon
>story, even though nobody believes it anymore.)

How does the army reconcile the secrecy surrounding the salvaging operation
and the subsequent threats made to civilians with the explanation that it was
just a weather balloon ?

-Sean.
[e-mail] | [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 00:16:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, Christopher
Schmidt writes

>                     ROSWELL TESTIMONY
                        .
                        .
                      . . .
                       ...
                        .

>(Incredibly, the Army is sticking to its weather balloon
>story, even though nobody believes it anymore.)

>>How does the army reconcile the secrecy surrounding the salvaging
operation
>>and the subsequent threats made to civilians with the explanation that it
was
>>just a weather balloon ?

>>-Sean.
>>[e-mail] | [e-mail]

Sean,

Easy......it's called stonewalling. There is a body of evidence, but nobody
is  willing to  challenge the government in a lawsuit. If enough people
came forward with a class action suit, mabye something would happen. As it
stands now, the government pretty much ignores(outwardly) people with such
claims.

What is needed is a very large amount of money & or a weak link involved up
to his/her eyeballs in the conspiracy, willing to come forward for whatever
reason, to catch these weasels in the act.





Then again, mabye we could get John_-_Winston to warm up the astral train
once again & do the world a big favor. For the good of all
mankind.......name a few names, listen in on some conversations, mabye
infiltrate the pentagon, Area 51, S4, etc,etc,etc...........How about it
John...............................>>>>
>>>>>infinity.....


Rod (I watch STTG & STDS9, so what of it) Beckwith


ping -f -s40000000000 [e-mail]


Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 09:30:54 GMT
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Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M.
> >Humphries) wrote:
> >>
> >> 1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
> >> accross cattle mutilations.

>   They demand
>    no greater proof, no physical evidence.


> ---peter


True, I didn't do too well in English (partially due to the fact that my school
was having loads of cuts). I myself don't think that cattle mutilations are a
UFO phenomenon, but are something man-made. As for proof, look in the appendix
of Tim Good's Alien Liaisons for photostats of documents detailing reports of
cattle mutilations, or the photos in the photo section.

>

--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 10:22:23 GMT
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N.M. Humphries ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
> > >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M.
> > >Humphries) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
> > >> accross cattle mutilations.

> >   They demand
> >    no greater proof, no physical evidence.


> > ---peter


> True, I didn't do too well in English (partially due to the fact that my school
> was having loads of cuts). I myself don't think that cattle mutilations are a
> UFO phenomenon, but are something man-made. As for proof, look in the appendix
> of Tim Good's Alien Liaisons for photostats of documents detailing reports of
> cattle mutilations, or the photos in the photo section.

> >

Perhaps I didn't put what I said above too well. I have an open mind about
the reasons for the cattle mutilations, but there is as much evidence for UFO
involvement as there is for vampire activity. Proof for the evidence of cattle
mutilation can be found in "Alien Liaisons".

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: The "New Fizziks"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: wierd stuff
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 01:32:50 GMT
Lines: 25


    I was recently fumbling through our "extensive" (yah, right) library
here at the university, and encountered a strange book by Bob Tobin,
featuring ideas by Fred Wolf and our friend Jack Sarfatti.
    It is called "Space-Time and beyond", and it looks (and reads) much
like a kiddie book.  In it, a cornucopia of wierd "facts" and "theories" are
presented, all about this "new physics" we've been hearing about here
recently.  THis book attempts to explain everything from telepathy to
healing and levitation, all through "explanations" in physics.  Actually,
the explanations are about one page long each, and hardly convincing in the
least, as they just present a potpourri of quotes pulled out of context from
various important physicists like Einstein, astronomers like James Jeans and
others.

    I wouldn't recommend anyone get this book unless they are into the
New Age, 'cause it reads like one of those flakey manuals of that movement.
    However, take it as you will, these ideas ARE interesting, if
amusing...


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 19 Jan 1993 01:57:28 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec) says:
>>Question: Is this just an episode from "the next generation" or perhaps a seperate telemovie?
>>
>>Secondly, I think JW may have made a spelling mistake, put an "l" into "taking" and it makes much more sense.
>>{ie "talking"}
>>
>Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Doesn't ANYONE recognize satire when they see it!
>OK, how does one "take" a wormhole? (-8  Better...?
>- Mike

Benefit of doubt ol boy,
I came to two conclusions after reading your reply to JW,
         1. Satire: response=ha ha ha he he he
         2. Serious: response=follow up article
Relax man, you're too stressed out.
Anyway, how about my question ?

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HAM Radio Station N9EUZ, Naperville, IL
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 19:51:46 GMT
Lines: 83

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>
>>I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
>>social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
>>intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.
>
>   Which is a bit like saying that "Gertrude, here, is the furriest
>   goldfish in my aquarium".    Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
>   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
>   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
>   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.
>

I disagree... your comments make me wonder how many episodes you've
actually watched. Some are indeed lame... but most are a rewarding
viewing experience.

>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>

This is what I thought... you condemn the series, and television
altogether, but you don't watch it. Hmmmm...

>>  Granted, the original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.
>
>   Please restate:  are you saying that 90's standards are better or
>   worse than 60's standards?
>

He probably meant in terms of technical standards such as special effects.
But let's let him defend his own statements.

>
>> And some of the episodes are rather bland (that can be said about every
>> series).
>
>   Not to mention every show.
>

This is an opinion... like music, television shows have their champions
and detractors. I think most classical music is crap, yet I'm sure many
people find it a rewarding listening experience.

>   The key to Star Trek's success is its ability to successfully
>   merchandise its themes and ideas by convincing viewers that
>   it offers genuine insight, wit, and meaningful commentary on
>   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
>   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
>   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
>   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.
>
I don't recall reading or hearing any such "flattery". Matter of fact
I initially hated the show. I couldn't believe the audacity of naming
the series "Star Trek" at all. I felt that they should have come up
with a new name altogether. Having watched the show for the past year
now, I've changed my opinion. TNG is a continuation of Roddenberry's
creation, much the same as the Harperhall series was a continuation
of Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders series.

>   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
>   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>   fiction!
>
This is a pompous attitude and makes you look like a snob...
On what statistics do you base your ridiculous notions? The people I
know who watch the series are voracious readers, as am I... Just because
we chose to explore these themes through an upbeat, modern medium
(television) doesn't mean they are invalid or less meaningful. Frankly,
I find reading classical Greek, the Bible or anything middle english to
be excruciating. This has the effect of making the medium more important
than the message. One should also acknowlege that there is a great deal
more "space" to thoroughly explore themes in a book compared to a 40
minute television episode. Comparing one to the other isn't quite fair.

- Mike
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From: [e-mail] (pivo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the universe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 01:04:19 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS User)
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]
Lines: 40

to the sysop,
i am a new user! really nice to cybo-meet you. i don't know if this is
one of those annoying sex infested bbs's or not if so, puritan paul is
here to stomp out all sinful behaviour, if you're just a bunch of really
cool computer types interested in good clean bbs'ing then all the best to
you and i hope to see you in heaven.






























---
[e-mail] (pivo)
The Draco Unix System [BBS]

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman IN BED?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: rec.humor,alt.sex,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 05:56:51 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
>\JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 15.01.93 um 10:05:
>
>\P> Dear Folks: It's good to hear that Kibo is back. I'm glad you got the
>\P> tape and it's OK if you want to dub the tape and pass the copies out
>\P> to other people. Betty is doing the same things. That comment by
>\P> Press2 was the best flame of the year. I really had a big laugh over it.
>\P> Keep it up.
>\P> John Winston.
>
>Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
>Please give me some Information on him...

Me too!

Also, can anyone send me the Green Golfball Joke?

                            -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (Noah Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.humor,alt.sex,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman IN BED?
Followup-To: rec.humor,alt.sex,alt.alien.visitors
Date: 19 Jan 93 01:27:04
Organization: Free Software Foundation, 675 Mass Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139
Lines: 4
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 19 Jan 1993 05:56:51 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>Also, can anyone send me the Green Golfball Joke?

Me too!
Xref: icaen alt.religion.kibology:5841 alt.alien.visitors:12694
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 07:10:24 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rob Dobson) writes:
>
>with about 50 trillion star trek froups out there, why the FUCK do
>we have to still talk about it here. ITS JUST A TV SHOW.
>
>back to kibo: exactly which planet did he come from?

This may not be relevant, but Kibo has been voted the Spokesperson for
the Earth, and gave a long winstonian acceptance speach. As a result of
the speach, that usenet authorities have promised to kill the accounts of
anybody who tells kibO the green golfball joke. Use extreme caution.


Rich

[e-mail]




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From: [e-mail] (Claudio Calvelli)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 10:16:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UseNet News Admin)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Claudio Calvelli)
Organization: Can't tell: it's a secret
Lines: 14

Joerg Loehn writes:
>
> Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
> Please give me some Information on him...

I can't believe there's still somebody who doesn't know who is Kibo.

Only somebody just arrived from outer space wouldn't know that. Maybe
Kibo can find a few seconds in his busy schedule and wear his Spokesman
for Earth hat?


--
Claudio Calvelli (formerly "The Voting Booth") - [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (colum clissmann)
Subject: Alien Visitors!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 10:44:09 GMT
Lines: 12

For any fans of Ford Prefect, he has graced our planet with his
company again but for only 14 hours this time instead of his
previous 14 years.
There is simple reason for this , our mostly harmless planet
is yet again blown up by the attractive poetry loving VOGONS
with Ford,Arthur,trillian,tricia(trillian in a different probability            universe) all present.
:wq
          xxxxxx

Ar
kj

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Wayne Smith)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Wits Univ. Computer Science Dept.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 11:06:25 GMT
Lines: 4

Concerning this case: with all the apparent debris lying around, and all the people who were supposed to have been at or near the site, why isn't it that someone kept some of the strange material as a keepsake? And if someone did keep some of it what would happen if they went public with it??

Cheers,
Wayne
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From: [e-mail] (steve hick)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Iceland Boy!) writes:
>   Interesting note:  According to one of Paul Tsongas's campaign
> leaflets, the word used for "white person" in Ethiopia used to be
> Ferengi (long before ST:TNG).  Sort of accurate, considering what
> imperialism did for the peoples of Africa.  (oh, p.s.  the word now {
> according to Tsongas, of course} is actually Tsongi!)

Ferengi is (?Urdu?) for foreigner, and is used all over India to describe
foreign materials brought in by the Europeans.





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From: [e-mail] (Tom Hamill)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman IN BED?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 14:50:52 GMT
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In article [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
>>\JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 15.01.93 um 10:05:
>>
>>\P> Dear Folks: It's good to hear that Kibo is back. I'm glad you got the
>>
>>Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
>>Please give me some Information on him...
>
>Me too!
>
Check out the newsgroup 'alt.religion.kibology'.  Everything you ever
wanted to know but were afraid to ask.

---tom

l~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 19 Jan 1993 08:57:31 -0600
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Previously [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) wrote:
>
>   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
>   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>   fiction!
>
>---peter
Ahh, the wonderful sound of acedemic arrogance.  O, how I wish everybody
could be as intellectually advanced as Peter, then nobody would bother
watching that drivel on tv.  After all, only an ignorant person would fail to
see that there is much better ways of being entertained.  Can not people see
that the cultured class has found the proper intellectual material for us to
consume? Why, Peter was nice enough to even list what the proper reading
material is!  Come along all you ignorant people, do what the intelligentsia
has told you to do.

--
Scott Erickson                                         [e-mail]

"I've always admired those people with so much time and energy that they
 can spend time attacking their friends, rather than their enemies."
                                 Karl Hess
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 19 Jan 1993 08:41:42 -0600
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Previously [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) wrote:
>Peter,

>Get a life.  You are so full of shit, your eyes are brown!

>People who say that they dont watch tv at all are idiots.  Sure, a

>People like Peter need to learn how to live.

>Gerry Roston ([e-mail])

Gee, Gerry, you sure sound defensive.  Did Peter touch a sore spot?  Maybe
the truth hurts.

Oh yes, could explain how people like Peter are to live.  Your post was not
very clear on the proper way of living.

--
Scott Erickson                                         [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>
>I still disagree.  In the last couple of years ST:NG has dealt with medical
>ethics, gender issues, parenting, the futility of war, justice (in many
>different ways), cultural relativism and multiculturalism, the relation of
>technology to science, and to life, and I could go on and on.

  LOTS of things have "dealt with" these issues!   Other TV programs,
  magazines, books, discussion groups, social and political movements,
  religions, popular music, stage productions, gallery art, etc.
  Why is this a recommendation of Star Trek.   My point is that if
  I feel like addressing these issues I can find better sources
  than a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic TV show like Star Trek.
  The fact that STNG discusses these things doesn't mean they do so
  particularly well.


> It's also NOT low brow.  I recognize attempts to deal with different
> philosophical positions and issues in those episodes.

  That doesn't make it not low-brow.

> Granted, this is done subtely

  "Sublety" is not a word I would ever use to describe STNG.  They
  telegraph their endings and philosophical viewpoints miles off.


>                  but it does have to appeal to a mass market to
>stay on the air.

  Exactly the problem.  This doesn't deny my points; it just makes
  excuses for them.


> It's an art to do that while saying something, and given
>the number of educated people who enjoy it, you are probably somewhat
>presumptuous in your comments.  OK, more than somewhat.

  So what?  "Education" in the US is a commodity.  Many people graduate
  from college and seldom open a book, have an original thought, or
  perform a creative act again in their lives.  I've had discussions
  with "educated" people on science and geography and other basic
  topics that should have been taught in school and have been appalled.
  Two weeks ago I returned from Tahiti and was *amazed* at the number
  of college-educated people who hadn't a clue where in the world
  it was (even what ocean, or what hemisphere).  Another reason I
  stopped watching TV was the INCREDIBLY stupid and wrong information
  passed off as "facts" that I used to hear daily on network TV news.
  But presumably the anchors and editors are "educated" people.   So
  I don't attach much significance to what "educated" people do.

  All I'm saying is that if you want insightful commentary on issues
  there is better to be found on non-TV sources.  If you want enter-
  tainment, i.e., action, adventure, drama, pathos, suspense, comedy,
  witty dialogue, etc, you can do better than TV for those things as
  well.


>>>  Granted, the original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.
>
>>   Please restate:  are you saying that 90's standards are better or
>>   worse than 60's standards?
>
>Much worse.  The role of women, minorities and the ability to deal with
>social issues was very difficult in the sixties.

  In other words 60's TV wasn't as politically correct.


>And unsubstantiated criticism probably works in this culture too.  You're
>just labeling it, you're not explaining why you say these things.  I think
>that perhaps you don't watch it,

  I don't watch ANY TV now.  But I used to watch it up 'til about
  a year and a half ago.


---peter




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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>>
>>>I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
>>>social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
>>>intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.
>>
>>   Which is a bit like saying that "Gertrude, here, is the furriest
>>   goldfish in my aquarium".    Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
>>   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
>>   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
>>   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.

>>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>>
>This is what I thought... you condemn the series, and television
>altogether, but you don't watch it. Hmmmm...

  I watched all the STNG episodes for the first two years and
  about half after that until about 18 months ago.

>>   The key to Star Trek's success is its ability to successfully
>>   merchandise its themes and ideas by convincing viewers that
>>   it offers genuine insight, wit, and meaningful commentary on
>>   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
>>   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
>>   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
>>   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.
>>
>I don't recall reading or hearing any such "flattery". Matter of fact

  The "flattery" consists of making broad, obvious philosophical
  points about themes like "war", racism", etc, in sufficiently
  indirect (meaning hardly indirect at all) ways that the viewers
  are able to congratulate themselves on "getting it".   It makes
  the duller viewrs feel smart because they got the point.   Un-
  fortunatelt it makes the rest of us feel like we're being talked,
  or preached, down-to.


>>   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
>>   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>>   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>>   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>>   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>>   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>>   fiction!
>>
>This is a pompous attitude and makes you look like a snob...

  I *am* a snob.

>                                                 Just because
>we chose to explore these themes through an upbeat, modern medium
>(television) doesn't mean they are invalid or less meaningful.

  Except that they aren't *exploring* these themes any more
  than someone who goes to Club Med in St. Lucia is "exploring"
  St. Lucia.   Star Trek talks about racism -- it doesn't
  "explore" it.   To do that, read something by Richard Wright
  or James Baldwin.    Your comments illustrate my point:
  people THINK that they're exploring great philosophical
  issues by watching TV shows.


> Frankly, I find reading classical Greek, the Bible or anything middle
> english to be excruciating.


>           One should also acknowlege that there is a great deal
>more "space" to thoroughly explore themes in a book compared to a 40
>minute television episode. Comparing one to the other isn't quite fair.

  Of course.  But you can't have your cake and it it too.  All this
  does is explain WHY TV can't offer real depth of insight.


---peter




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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: rec.humor,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman IN BED?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
> >
> >Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
> >Please give me some Information on him...
>
> Me too!
>
> Also, can anyone send me the Green Golfball Joke?
>
>                             -- K.


All Right, here is the Joke:

A Martian Goes and play golf on a nearby orange
(that's what greens are called there). As he approaches
hole 19 (There are 19.5 holes in martian golfs), his ball
(I mean his _golf_ ball, you JW !) tells him:

"Beware of the Kaeerwerk, buddy ."


To what he replies (and that's the funny part):


^H^G&%#@@@@


]]H

    eNDAboRt^H%^H
     614.7920C137ILIKe6r

[e-mail][e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>>I still disagree.  In the last couple of years ST:NG has dealt with medical
>>ethics, gender issues, parenting, the futility of war, justice (in many
>>different ways), cultural relativism and multiculturalism, the relation of
>>technology to science, and to life, and I could go on and on.
>
>  LOTS of things have "dealt with" these issues!   Other TV programs,
>  magazines, books, discussion groups, social and political movements,
>  religions, popular music, stage productions, gallery art, etc.
>  Why is this a recommendation of Star Trek.   My point is that if
>  I feel like addressing these issues I can find better sources
>  than a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic TV show like Star Trek.
>  The fact that STNG discusses these things doesn't mean they do so
>  particularly well.

The thing I still disagree with you is that you are attacking ST:NG's way of
dealing with these things as "preachy, self-righteous, simplistic" which
seems more a rather "low-brow" (to use your term) method of argumentation by
insult.  That might work for politicians, but it really doesn't carry much
intellectual weight.  Usually ST:NG tries to:
  -- show different sides of issues and leave interpretation open
  -- promote tolerance of different perspectives
  -- use drama and fantasy to bring these issues to life, something that TV
can do better than many other sources

Some of the shows really blow me away with the power of their message, as
did the first Deep Space Nine episode which dealt with a powerful emotional
theme, the nature of time, and a bit tension and drama.  Perhaps that isn't
to your taste -- some people are liberal, some are conservative, some like
fantasy, others like hard cold facts, etc.  There are many different people
with many different ways of experiencing the world out there.  I am
convinced that my tastes are different from yours, but I don't think that
you have any logical grounds for proclaiming yours better -- unless its mere
prejudice.

>>                  but it does have to appeal to a mass market to
>>stay on the air.

>  Exactly the problem.  This doesn't deny my points; it just makes
>  excuses for them.

Well, gee, lighten up a bit.  It sounds like you think "the masses are
asses" and that appealing to them is per se beneath what you consider good
communication.  My speciality is German politics, and that sort of attitude
is reminiscient of how the East German state treated it's people before they
finally revolted.  Only the intellectual elite understood the world, it was
claimed.  Without tolerance of diversity, there is no liberty.

>  So what?  "Education" in the US is a commodity.  Many people graduate
>  from college and seldom open a book, have an original thought, or
>  perform a creative act again in their lives.  I've had discussions
>  with "educated" people on science and geography and other basic
>  topics that should have been taught in school and have been appalled.
>  Two weeks ago I returned from Tahiti and was *amazed* at the number
>  of college-educated people who hadn't a clue where in the world
>  it was (even what ocean, or what hemisphere).  Another reason I
>  stopped watching TV was the INCREDIBLY stupid and wrong information
>  passed off as "facts" that I used to hear daily on network TV news.
>  But presumably the anchors and editors are "educated" people.   So
>  I don't attach much significance to what "educated" people do.

I agree with a lot of what you say; I've studied in Italy and did
dissertation work in Germany, and I have experienced similar feelings about
American education, the news system, etc.  But there are also many people in
this country who are both educated and insightful, and I think that ST:NG
represents entertainment that many of those enjoy.  The Simpsons I would
also put in this category, because it has many subthemes and considerable
social criticism of our society (including of the things you complain about
above) that probably goes over the head of a lot of people watching.  ST:NG
and the Simpsons are favorites of more Profs and doctoral candidates than
any other shows I know of.  Does this say they are great shows? No. But
look, there is something there that appeals to people, and it's not just
inane late 20th century marketing.  Even if you can't see it, I would wish
that you would trust that fact that some very smart and educated people do
see it.  And I'm talking about people who are just as well-read as you, if
not more.

>  All I'm saying is that if you want insightful commentary on issues
>  there is better to be found on non-TV sources.  If you want enter-
>  tainment, i.e., action, adventure, drama, pathos, suspense, comedy,
>  witty dialogue, etc, you can do better than TV for those things as
>  well.

Define better.  Again, somethings are dealt with in a certain way in drama
that can't be done through cold argumentation.  That happens when you go
away from a well performed play with a feeling that the message was
powerful.  Or when you see a film and discuss it with friends for hours --
how it was performed, what was meant, etc.  After ST:DS9's premiere a group
of us talked for a long time about the nature of time, relativity, and
psychology.  The issues were too complex to go into here, but I guarantee
you that it wasn't a superficial conversation.  AGAIN, you might find these
topics boring or dumb, but others don't.  And who are you to judge?  I
rather doubt that you are better read or more insightful than my friends
and I.  I don't mean to sound arrogant with that statement, arrogance begets
arrogance, and you sound pretty snobby.

>  In other words 60's TV wasn't as politically correct.

In other words, 60's TV represented a lot of bigotry and intolerance in
society that TV was not allowed to confront.  Now TV is confronting it.  The
label politically correct is silly, and again you seem to want to attack
things via insult rather than logic.  You may not disagree with the
political content of what's on TV, but that has little to do with its
intellectual value.

Thanks for the provacative reply to my last post!
  - Scott, U. of Minnesota

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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re^2: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
>
>Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
>Please give me some Information on him...

Many are they who ARE called, but FEW are they that knowf Kibo.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circl
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard) writes:

>with some interesting observations. Apparently "genuine" circles
>formed in the presence of orange or white ball-shaped lights, and it
>is said an 80' diameter UFO was seen, from which orange balls
>emanated. There is a chap who was there who is a decent and reliable
>cove by name of Marshall Dudley; he published some statistics on
>circle formation after these observations (taken over 4 weeks).
>These he subsequently posted on the ILink network.

Can you repost these here? We've been looking for some hard data on the
British circle scene.

>Unanswered qeustions:

>1) Why do these phenomena only appear in a few counties of South
>West England? Do they appear anywhere else?

Yes, they appear around the world.  There were 92 circles in North
America in 1992 (we've just started working on the 1992 report).

>2) Why only in wheatfields?

They're not only in wheatfields, of course.  They also have been found
in virtyally any other crop you want to name: corn, barley, grass,
alfalfa, etc.

>3) How is it that there are no tracks or footprints leading to the
>circles, and is there any connection with cattle mutilations which
>also have no tracks or disturbances in their vicinity?

Big quantum leap to connect these, though some people link them.
Footprints have been found at many sites, by the way.

>4) What is the significance of the timings of genuine circle
>formation?

Probably none.

>5) What is the significance of the non-random patterns, eg squares,
>circles, concentric rings, dumb-bells, mandelbrots etc?

It's felt by many people that the complex formations are hoaxes.  Even
vortex-theory supporters have pulled back and think only the simple
singles are "genuine".

>6) What is the nature of the orange or white ball-lights seen moving
>around forming circles?

Unknown.  Only a comparatively few cases have these, and they're not
restricted to the "genuine ones", I might add.

>7) Why is there no "official" (government) comment on these
>phenomena?

They're not interested in them.  Yes, yes, I know what Wingfield et al.
are saying, but I don't think the idea has much real support.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news.netmbx.de!unlisys!harvey!krypta!uucp
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Message to the "Greys"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1993 12:00:00 +0200
Lines: 28

Hello Paul!

Wednesday January 13 1993, Paul Milsom writes to All:

 PM>    MESSAGE TO "THE GREYS" (OR OTHER ETs WILLING TO COMMUNICATE)
 PM> I am assuming that you have full access to our communications networks and
 PM> that you even keep an eye on this newsgroup.

:-)))

 PM> Would you be prepared to communicate with us through this medium?

I think, it's better if you try it telepathically. I think, that the greys don't
communicate or read in this area... too many stuff....
In europe, we have a special network and a area for personal kontacts without
noise or twit messages... (german language...)

 PM> It would also be of advantage if you could reply in some way that can't be
 PM> faked by terrestrials, but I don't know all the possibilities.

I like to have a smaltalk with our alien friends, too! :-)

cheers
   Andre

 * Origin:ParaNet -=<Sigma-Alpha>=- the light of the planet (2:2403/10)

 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Sigma-Alpha>=- The UFO Information In Berlin (2:2403/10)
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 19:52:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

Okay folks,

Although this has been more interesting than most issues that have been
discussed here lately in a.a.v, IT IS TIME ONCE AGAIN TO GET BACK TO THE
SUBJECT.

STTG & STDS9 have their own newsgroup called
rec.arts.startrek.current----GO THERE!!!!

NUFF SAID;-|

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 93 18:41:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Lynch) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>  [text deleted]
>|>
>|> Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?
>|>
>
>
>Don't stop!!  You and a few others are the only reason I still subscribe
>to this group.  Your posts are sane and informative, and always interesting.
>I appreciate the time and trouble you must go to to post some of the
>lengthy articles I've seen here lately.
>
>I use xrn to read the news, and the poster's name is shown next to the
>article title in the previewer.  I weed out most of the garbage here by
>simply homing in on your name and a few others.
>
>
>Mike Lynch
>[e-mail]

I agree......DON ALLEN...PLEASE DO NOT STOP POSTING TO THIS
NEWSGROUP. It has been months since eyou and I spoke one on
one.......I sincerely hope you contact me. Your database is by
far the most extensive and complete database on UFOs and ETs
the world over. If you poeple think I am bs'ing here...try 400
Megabytes of information!!!!

Please keep on posting Don...and to hell with the flamers!!!!
;^)

Sincerely..your Bud!
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Jan 93 18:47:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 58

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>I've been reading this newsgroup for a while now and would like to introduce
>some form of debate for readers to pick up on (JW excluded).
>
>1) Having read a number of books on the UFO phenomenon, I have frequently come
>accross cattle mutilations. This is when cattle have parts of their bodies cut
>out very precisely and all their blood drained out of them. When scientists
>examined these mutilated bodies, not a single trace of blood was found either in
>the body or on the ground around the body. What I want to know is it possible to
>recreate this effect on earth?
>

Of Course! The gvt has had surgical laser technology for a good number
of years. It is ONLY in the past 5 years or so that it has been
allowed to filter down to the civillian level.

>2) Crop circles. All are hoaxes. Speaking as a hoaxer myself, I've found that
>the "experts" cannot tell a natural circle from a manmade one, so any research
>would be pointless.

Ahhhh...i see here. You are a quitter! You obviously have read nothing
produced by Colin Andrews who is a world reknown researcher in this
phenomena. Because you never heard of him does not invalidate the
man's credentials!

>
>3) Alien races. There are alien races, but how people on earth got their names
>is a mystery to me. "Greys" are another matter since some respected UFOlogists
>claim to have seen them (Tim Good, Bob Oeschler to name but two). I mean, the
>Centaurians from Alpha Centauri, I ask you! (For those that don't know, AC is a
>star, not a planet).

So...you think that the name "Earthlings" sounds sophisticated? NASA
designates all planets in any system by their star + orbital
position.ergo...Reticulum3 = third planet from Zeta reticulum...or
SOL3 = third planet from our sun designated as SOL.

I suppose we can also be called Solarians! Dont let the terminlogy get
in the way of understanding the research. Words are an arbitrary point
of reference to provide clarity for the reader..that's all.

Len
>
>4) JW isn't mad, just a disinformer.

Maybe yes...maybe no....
>
>Thankyou.
>
>
>The Cursor.


--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 00:18:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>>>BUT!!! I fully defend John's First Amendment Right to speak his
>>>piece as he pleases.
>
>   The First Amendment is not an issue here.  There is nothing
>   about the First Amendment that that requires that anyone
>   provide a *forum* for someone's opinions.  Neither Usenet
>   nor anyone else is obligated to allow John to post his
>   views.   He's free to publish his own newspaper and the
>   government cannot censor him.  he's free to get up on his
>   soapbox in the city park, (etc).  That's the extent of
>   it.
>
>
>---peter

Peter...this is poppycock!!!!! As long as John or any poster
maintains their postings within the realm of reasonable
civility...most companies couldn't even care less never mind
police the damned net!

Usenet is not run by a business...it is not owned by anyone.
It is raw anarchy. And as long as John pleases his employer
with quality work that meest all deadlines why should his
employer give a damn? Answer is...his employer DOESN'T give a
damn.

And rightfully so.......I dont particularly like seeing any of
the groups become a forum for ego massgae either but so be it
Peter....YOU are the one being played for fool
here.......no offense meant by me....don't you know how to use
the kill function????? If not..can you access a man page on
the news reader you use?

There are ways of ensuring that specific posters or subjects
NEVER show up on your screen....why dont you do that instead
of sitting here pissing and moaning like a spoiled child?

Len

DISCLAIMER: SO I'm not diplomatic..at least I cut to the quick
and get it over with!


--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!csisun!jriley
From: [e-mail] (John Riley)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuSci, Inc
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 19:40:27 GMT
Lines: 2

More goo, please....  Oliver Twisted

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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NICAP?? Does it still exist?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 20:54:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 9


    [e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
    Does this group still exist? ANyone have an address?

... nope, alas.  Both it and APRO bit the dust quite a few years ago.
As I recall, their files are kept by CUFOS.  (That and MUFON are the
two "big" UFO groups in the US these days.)

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 17:24:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: onion.GERRY.93Jan19122426
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Lines: 38
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 18 Jan 1993 20:28:51 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

   >People like Peter need to learn how to live.
     You call passively watching OTHER people doing things "living"?

You call _______ "living"
  - watching people blow air through tuned brass orifices
  - reading words printed on paper
  - walking in the woods
  - etc

You should get the point.  Life is to enjoy.  There are many ways of
doing this, some prefer sedentary (sp?) activities, others prefer more
active life styles.  Most prefer a mix of the two.  However, to
catagorically write off a mode of entertainment, such as tv, is down
right stupid.  No human endeavor is perfect, they all have good and
bad.  Some may claim (and I am the first to do so), that certain forms
have a lower ratio of good to bad, but this just requires developing a
better discrimination filter.

In terms of TV, my filter runs something like this: If it has a laugh
track, don't waste your time.  Shows I like include Silk Stalkings,
Dangerous Curves and ST:TNG.  I think my favorite show of all times,
though, was Sledge Hammer.  Since the show was a comedy with out a
laugh track, not enough people understood the humor, so it quickly died.


--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | In the first place it is to be remembered
Field Robotics Center,          | that the general government is not to be
Carnegie Mellon University      | charged with the whole power of making and
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | administering laws.  Its jurisdiction is
[phone]                  | limited to certain enumerated objects...
                                | James Madison
The opinions expressed are mine |
and do not reflect the official |
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  |
or any other organization.      |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13605 alt.alien.visitors:12716 sci.skeptic:37157
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci10.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 22:10:56 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

>Okay folks,

>Although this has been more interesting than most issues that have been
>discussed here lately in a.a.v, IT IS TIME ONCE AGAIN TO GET BACK TO THE
>SUBJECT.

>STTG & STDS9 have their own newsgroup called
>rec.arts.startrek.current----GO THERE!!!!

>NUFF SAID;-|

I disagree.  The themes being dealt with in these postings relate to the
newsgroups being posted to (some more than others, obviously).  Diversity of
subject matter is a part of this whole thing, you can skip over what you do
not want to read.  So I will post where I want to post, regardless of your
rather rude response.  So there.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 23:22:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>>(Incredibly, the Army is sticking to its weather balloon
>>story, even though nobody believes it anymore.)
>
>How does the army reconcile the secrecy surrounding the salvaging operation
>and the subsequent threats made to civilians with the explanation that it was
>just a weather balloon ?

  Why is the Army required to even answer such questions?

  Look, for those of you who just arrived on this planet, or
  think you did, let me explain something:   THE MILITARY
  DOES LOTS OF THINGS IN SECRET.   This has been true for
  years, in many countries and many branches of the service.
  It's called "national security".  I have no problem with
  this and I see no reason why they should waste their time
  and my tax money answering questions or explaining things
  to every flake who comes down the road with some fuzzy,
  grainy pictures of something that might not be a weather
  balloon.

  If you have some evidence of anything extraterrestrial
  going on at Roswell or anywhere else then let's see it.
  Don't expect everybody to do your work for you!  Talk
  is cheap and Occam's razor says if there is anything secret
  going on at a military base it's more likely to be a
  military secret than an alien spaceship.


---peter





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From: [e-mail] (Mike Beede)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: SCTC
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 22:17:24 GMT
Lines: 19

>People who say that they dont watch tv at all are idiots.

This is a new tack in this old argument.  In fact, it gives me
inspiration for a few more:

    People that can read are illiterate!

    Math professors can't count!

    People that don't eat raw rats are not gourmets!



    Mike
--
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
[e-mail]     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                    [phone]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ancient Atomic Blasts. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 16:48:10 EDT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Lines: 20

Lord help me, I can't help myself....


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>   When a large ziggurat in Babylonia was excavated, it gave the appearance of
> having been struck by a terrible fire that had split it down to its
> foundation.


When will people learn that ziggurat smoking is hazardous to you health????




                                -------------------------------------
                                ^    I don't do no drugs, man.      ^
   Jean Manes                   ^      I'm hooked on phonics.       ^
                                ^-----------------------------------^


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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 00:02:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:


>Well, gee, lighten up a bit.  It sounds like you think "the masses are
>asses" and that appealing to them is per se beneath what you consider good
>communication.

 It doesn't matter what I think of the masses, it is clear that the
 NETWORKS think they are!   The vocabulary and concepts they use
 in these shows are aimed at a very modest level.  Unfortunately
 this prevents them from getting into any meaty scientific or
 philosophical issues, especially in 46 minutes.  Moreover their
 pandering to the forces of political correctness and to the
 network censors on matters like nudity, language, and violence
 further limits their range.

 It's entirely possible that if ST:NG were to treat it's viewers
 like educated adults they might be surprised.  Or maybe not.
 But we'll never know.


>inane late 20th century marketing.  Even if you can't see it, I would wish
>that you would trust that fact that some very smart and educated people do
>see it.  And I'm talking about people who are just as well-read as you, if
>not more.

 Plenty of smart and well educated people watch football games and
 have snowball fights.   But they don't try to pass these off as
 philosophy discussions or physics experiments.


>>  All I'm saying is that if you want insightful commentary on issues
>>  there is better to be found on non-TV sources.  If you want enter-
>>  tainment, i.e., action, adventure, drama, pathos, suspense, comedy,
>>  witty dialogue, etc, you can do better than TV for those things as
>>  well.
>
>Define better.

  Deeper, more complex, more thought-provoking philosophy; funnier
  humor, more suspenseful suspense ('cause you don't know how it's
  going to turn out), better production values, wittier dialogue,
  etc.  What did you THINK I meant by "better"?   No matter what
  quality you think a TV show offers, for either intellectual
  stimulation or "entertainment" I can probably find a book,
  movie, lecture, or some participatory activity (game, hobby,
  sport, discussion, etc) that offers better.


>of us talked for a long time about the nature of time, relativity, and
>psychology.  The issues were too complex to go into here, but I guarantee
>you that it wasn't a superficial conversation.

  Good, but this doesn't say anything good about the TV program,
  the credit goes to you and your friends for being interested in,
  and knowledgable about, these topics.

>and I.  I don't mean to sound arrogant with that statement, arrogance begets
>arrogance, and you sound pretty snobby.

  I *am*.  For all the occasional discussions, above, that may be
  stimulated by TV, the overall effect of TV, IMNSHO, is a vast
  "dumbing down" of America.


>>  In other words 60's TV wasn't as politically correct.
>
>In other words, 60's TV represented a lot of bigotry and intolerance in
>society that TV was not allowed to confront.

   If this was the case, it *chose* not to.   Note also that musicals
   like _South Pacific_ were confronting issues like bigotry in 1956.

   But today TV's choices are just as artificial; whereas in 1960
   the only black faces TV showed were train porters or cooks,
   today TV goes out of it's way to ensure that every group of
   people: every office scene, starship crew, classroom, etc,
   is carefully populated with as much ethnic and gender diversity
   as they can manage, always making sure that women are given
   non-stereotyped roles for females (security officers) and
   blacks are given non-stereotyped roles for blacks (scientists,
   engineers, etc).   This is not an improvement, it's just more
   artifice.

   And it provides the viewer with the false sense of satisfaction
   that he, or TV, is confronting these issues.   I've literally
   heard people say things like, "I'm not racist, I watch the Bill
   Cosby show".


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Hamid Radvar @lone)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Alsys Group, San Diego, CA, USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 23:11:11 GMT
Lines: 11


>Ferengi is (?Urdu?) for foreigner, and is used all over India to describe
>foreign materials brought in by the Europeans.

In Farsi, the language spoken in Iran, 'farangi' means foreign.  Of
course, Farsi is also the language of Afghanistan, but I'm not sure if
they also have this word.


Hamid Radvar

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 00:11:58 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Claudio Calvelli) writes:
>Joerg Loehn writes:
>>
>> Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
>> Please give me some Information on him...
>
>I can't believe there's still somebody who doesn't know who is Kibo.
>
>Only somebody just arrived from outer space wouldn't know that. Maybe
>Kibo can find a few seconds in his busy schedule and wear his Spokesman
>for Earth hat?

I just got a V.32 modem and boy are my arms tired from trying to type
fast enough.  I'll let someone else explain who or what Kibo is or was.
And besides, I want to know too.

BTW, does anyone have the 57600 question purity test?

                        -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Not another one!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 13:45:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ure.csc.liv.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

First we had John Winston, King of the BS, he's still here and is now joined by
Jack Sarfatti. Why is he writing in stuff about Star Fleet for? Either he's
sending in stuff to the wrong group or has caught Winstonitus - the illness
which makes people write complete and utter bullshit.

--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13610 alt.alien.visitors:12724 sci.skeptic:37166
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 20 Jan 1993 02:14:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>   ...Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
>   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
>   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
>   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.
>
>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.

So you quit watching "lowbrow" shows enjoyed by people who are not "very
well-read" and who "have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece of
lawn furniture", and decided to engage in more intellectually stimulating
pursuits, like reading Usenet newsgroups.  Big step up there, Peter.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mr Sarfatti I presume
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 21:10:11 GMT

Hello? Mr Sarfatti?

    I would very much like to discuss some theorectical ideas
my universty resaerch club is working on. Would you please contact me on my
E mail account ? Its [e-mail]

Thank you
    Lynn

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From: [e-mail] (Mark Stephenson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: HELLO!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 93 21:59:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Datamax/Satalink Connection * Ivyland, PA [phone]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark Stephenson)
Lines: 7

This is to say "Hello" to the people on (1028) Alien Visitors.  I have a
great deal of interest in the abduction phenomenon.  Specifically, I am
looking for people who have read "Secret Lives" by Dave Jacobs.
Further, I am looking to chat with people who want to share abduction
experiences.  If you are equally interested in these topics - or others
related to these, please drop me a line.  Best wishes, Mark Stephenson.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Indiana University Cyclotron Facility, Bloomington, Indiana
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution:  world
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 04:50:25 GMT
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>>(Incredibly, the Army is sticking to its weather balloon
>>>story, even though nobody believes it anymore.)
>>
>>How does the army reconcile the secrecy surrounding the salvaging operation
>>and the subsequent threats made to civilians with the explanation that it was
>>just a weather balloon ?
>
>  Why is the Army required to even answer such questions?
>
>  Look, for those of you who just arrived on this planet, or
>  think you did, let me explain something:   THE MILITARY
>  DOES LOTS OF THINGS IN SECRET.   This has been true for
>  years, in many countries and many branches of the service.
>  It's called "national security".  I have no problem with
>  this and I see no reason why they should waste their time
>  and my tax money answering questions or explaining things
>  to every flake who comes down the road with some fuzzy,
>  grainy pictures of something that might not be a weather
>  balloon.
>
>  If you have some evidence of anything extraterrestrial
>  going on at Roswell or anywhere else then let's see it.
>  Don't expect everybody to do your work for you!  Talk
>  is cheap and Occam's razor says if there is anything secret
>  going on at a military base it's more likely to be a
>  military secret than an alien spaceship.
>
>
>---peter

I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
that are secret.

But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.

A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

BTW: This is one of the classical, unanswered questions in the Roswell
case.

Jim Graham

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
|           dolmen![e-mail]                        |
| BBS:      The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 05:15:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
> \JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 15.01.93 um 10:05:
> \P> Keep it up.
> \P> John Winston.
>
> Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
> Please give me some Information on him...
>
Kibo used to be a Nerd in Junior High School who thought Star
Trek was real? Now he knows it's just a tv show!

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12729 alt.religion.kibology:5865
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From: [e-mail] (James H. Kiley)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 05:47:45 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:


>BTW, does anyone have the 57600 question purity test?

    It's about two-thirds of the way down your .sig, Kibo.  Right
under the line that begins 'Below is a 57600 question purity test, and
it doesn't even take up a quarter of this .sig'.
    Apology accepted, what with having to convince McDonalds to cater
the inaugural ball on such short notice.

>                        -- K.

Xref: icaen alt.religion.kibology:5866 alt.alien.visitors:12730 alt.conspiracy:22074
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Ferengi.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 05:42:29 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matt McIrvin) writes:
>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>As a result of
>>the speach, that usenet authorities have promised to kill the accounts of
>>anybody who tells kibO the green golfball joke. Use extreme caution.
>
>Kibo-- I hope it's not too late, you being inaugurated tomorrow and all--
>can I head the Men In Black?  Suppressing UFO investigators is a hobby
>of mine, and I love those Ray-Bans.

Actually, under my Politically Perfect regime, they are the "Persons In
Color".  However, you may head them.

                            -- K.

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12731 alt.religion.kibology:5868
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman? IN BED
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 05:48:01 GMT
Lines: 19

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joerg Loehn) writes:
>> \JOHN_-_\WINSTON%CUP.PORTAL.COM@USENET schrieb am 15.01.93 um 10:05:
>> \P> Keep it up.
>> \P> John Winston.
>>
>> Who is Kibo? I asked about him some time ago, but there's still no answer.
>> Please give me some Information on him...
>>
>Kibo used to be a Nerd in Junior High School who thought Star
>Trek was real? Now he knows it's just a tv show!

No, no.  I thought "Blake's 7" was real.  I thought "Star Trek" was
a small brown bear covered with Deviled Spam.  And I still think that
alt.alien.visitors is like a giant sink swirling down the drain of a
much bigger giant sink while a small penguin whines, "Radio!  Radio!"

                        -- K.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 07:09:44 GMT
Lines: 20

[e-mail] writes:
>I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
>that are secret.
>
>But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>
>A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon platform or to set
an altitude record and something went wrong and the crew was killed.  It
would be very embarrassing public relations-wise if this go out.  This sounds
like a plausible reason for secrecy.

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
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From: [e-mail] (JOHN-ARILD STRM)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Help find adress.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 08:01:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Nordland College
Lines: 3

Can someone find me the adresses to High-Schools in Kentucky. My sister goes
to school at one of them and I like to talk to her. I can use Email, netnews
and telnet.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 09:39:42 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Wayne Smith) writes:
> Concerning this case: with all the apparent debris lying around, and all the people who were supposed to have been at or near the site, why isn't it that someone kept some of the strange material as a keepsake? And if someone did keep some of it what woul> d happen if they went public with it??
>
> Cheers,
> Wayne

I believe in a recent radio interview he did in (?)Denver, Kevin Randle
(co-author of the book Crash at Roswell) stated that he had handled
small pieces of wreckage which it was claimed had come from the Roswell
incident.

I think the interview was connected with a lecture Kevin was giving for
MICAP in Denver. Perhaps Mike Corbin, a regular contributor to a.a.v
and head of MICAP will be able to confirm (or otherwise) my memories.

Steve
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.univie.ac.at!scsing.switch.ch!sparc2!news
From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 10:08:52 GMT
Lines: 37


    Roswell.

Hello. I've just dug out my old video about the Roswell event. The argument
against ETs is that it was a "weather balloon".

Well, there's nothing special about a weather balloon, but, of course, none
of these balloons is ever alone, they are all carrying something. Nobody
sends up a bolloon by itself, and this is the interesting part of the story.
What was the Roswell balloon originally carrying?

In my video, the debunkers say that it was a "radar corner reflector".

There's a picture of it on the video (looks genuine, very old). Of course,
they presumably don't use them now. There are four or five balloons, and
they're holding the "radar corner reflector". The reflector is big and
longish, seems to be about 5-10 metres long, I guess, and seems to be made of
very thin metal. There are "panels" of this metal which are roughly square,
and the shape seems to be such that radar would reflect however the reflector
was angled. (like a horisontal cross) The metal really has to be very light
and strong for these balloons to hold it (and they are doing).

The argument against anything "strange" seems to be that
1) The development of radar itself was a secret undertaking.
2) The shape of the reflector (and being able to use something like this at
all in a test) was secret.
3) The special metal alloy used was secret. It was very thin, very light, and
very strong. It was, of course, extremely important that samples of the metal
didn't get into enemy hands. (Don't ask me what it was!)

If it weren't for all the witnesses, this would actually be quite a strong
case. (Don't flame me, I'm just answering Jim's question!)

                            Cheers,    Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:37182 alt.alien.visitors:12736
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Erich von Daeniken has a new TV show in Germany
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 11:23:31 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) says:
>
>>3) they'll come back.  EvD says it would be not serious (right word?) to
>>  speculate about when this could be.
>
>(right word?), I do not know ! It depends on what you are trying to say.
>Try putting in brackets a few other words  you think might be similar.

If I knew any, I'd have used them instead...
I mean "serious" as in "serious reasearcher".  EvD is worrying about his
reputation, he doesn't want to speculate.  Yes, I'm smiling...

>>Astronomer Carl Sagan, who was misquoted in one of the first EvD books:
>>"The most friendly thing I can say about him is that he ignores archaeological
>>science.  Every time he sees a thing he doesn't understand he attributes it to
>>extraterrestrial beings, and since he does understand almost nothing, he sees
>>the evidence for extraterrestrial beings everywhere on this planet."
>>(translated from English to German and back)
>
>Did Carl Sagan say this about EvD, or did EvD say this about Carl Sagan?
>ie:Does the text above describe Carl Sagan, or EvD?

Sagan said that about EvD.  Sorry for not being clear.

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
Philosophy is the art of drawing conclusions from definitions that have been
chosen so that one can draw the conclusions one would like to get.
It immediately follows that philosophy is silly.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ParaNet UFO Continuum Radio Show
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 06:16:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 17


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally by Michael Corbin
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 19 Jan 1993, 23:16

The satellite radio network that was carrying our show has closed it doors for
financial reasons, thus canceling our show.  We are in the process of relocating to our new home and will be back up in a few weeks with an announcement to follow as to time, satellite frequencies, etc.

Thanks for your interest in the show.  The first four weeks was very enjoyable.

Michael Corbin

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 14:54:56 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>>Although this has been more interesting than most issues that have been
>>discussed here lately in a.a.v, IT IS TIME ONCE AGAIN TO GET BACK TO THE
>>SUBJECT.
>
>>STTG & STDS9 have their own newsgroup called
>>rec.arts.startrek.current----GO THERE!!!!

  I agree.   Discussions about Star Trek or the value of TV
  have little relationship to alt.alien.visitors or sci.skeptic.

  So how come when I post a comment on TV I get a mailbag of
  response, but when I post comments on cattle-mutilations,
  virus mutations, or Duesberg's wacko HIV-doesn't-cause-AIDS
  theory, which woulkd seem to be more relevant, I get hardly
  any responses?!


---peter

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cause of it.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:28:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50


Subject: Cause of Nuclear
Type Blasts.
  In the past we have talked about places where it appears that there have
been blasts which destroyed certain areas.  I will not put down a possible
cause of some of those blasts. This is a space person talking..... The
Satonians, a race of space people evolved on a negative plane of existence,
arrived  upon your planet and usurped the controls of government and
science. Their infiltration had been stealthy and passed unxnoticed. They
called themselves Atlans.
 War between Atlantis and Lemurian came about after intoleratble conditions.
We of the Confederation, who had visited your planet and entered into trade
with these two races, observed with growing alarm the frightening
conditions.  Powerless, as we were to intervene because of the Galactic Pax
regulations concerning our intervention in any planet's affairs; we,
nontheless, petitioned the Saturn Tribunal, our law guardian for this sector
of space, that we might be of service to the people of earth.  As the
Tribunal's emissaries witnessed the unleashing of horrific powers of
destruction wielded by the Atlans against the Lemurians, a consent for
evacuation of the forces of "Light" and truth from earth was ordered, since
the earth's peoples had not initiated this strife.
 At once, the Seven Cities of Shan, each capable of caring for 10,000 people,
were moored outside your solar system. Their transport craft landed upon you
surface.  Those people of the Atlanteans and Lemurians, who held the
principles of "Light" and Love, were removed by our craft to Venus and
thence to other areas of Confederation controlled space.
  The Satonians, furious by this action of ours, ordered the immediate
destruction of both continents. Then, after turning the forces of the
dreaded hydrogen vril rays from their nuclear blasts upon the earth's
greatest civilizations, left in their craft and returned to their own
galaxtic system beyond the constellation of Orion.
  The remains of earth's warring factions, left in the wake of the destruction
which sank both continents, wandered to the land area you now call South
America and established the ancient civilizations you call the Inca; meaning
in our solar tongue "the lonely ones."
  Perhaps, my friends, you who have vision can see the drama of the past
attempting to take place again in your present time. We, however, shall not
let this take place. The time is drawing near when once again we, your
brothers, shall greet you. A reunion many of us have waited for.
Source of Material; Star Wards, by Richard Miller.
  This is me JW speaking now. I'm about ready for them to make themselves
know, aren't you?

"Litght"
 answs
,(x{xxg
xxB    x`xxqxsxux
,<
0Roman 10cpi dreded hydrogenx vril rays froxm their xnuclear lasts uponx
the earth' greatest civilizaionxsx, left ixn the
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: I'm back.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:35:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Everbody: I just got back on the Net. It's sort of like the sign
they had out in front of the psychic's convention that said, "Cancelled
due to unforseen difficulties. I'll catch up with you people later.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13616 alt.alien.visitors:12741 sci.skeptic:37189
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From: [e-mail] (Pat Pontis)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 15:04:25 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)


>Dangerous Curves and ST:TNG.  I think my favorite show of all times,
>though, was Sledge Hammer.  Since the show was a comedy with out a
>laugh track, not enough people understood the humor, so it quickly died.
>
Your right.  I normally don't care for most of what is on TV, but Sledge
had something.  Perhaps it was his unconditional love of his gun.  Didn't
notice the lack of music on Sledge, but the new program with Linda Hunt,
Space Rangers (I think), can loose the annoying background music as soon
as possible.  It may be my TV.  Anyone else having this problem??  Pat
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rama 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:40:05 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
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1>+%'''''
(Subject: Rama. Part 3.
  This is a contiuation of the information about David coming in contact with
a person form another planet down in South American. Rama predicted that
David would be put in prison and he was. So here we go again; ....."Where do
you come from?" I asked.
  "We're from a galaxy not too far from here," he said. He opened a scroll and
I could see an oval map with many kinds of dots on it. He pointed at a group
of stars, which he indentified as the constellation of Taro, Star Alcyone,
the Pleiades. He located our own sun, then he showed me his home planet on
the map, which appeared to be nothing more than a bunch of dots to me. He
told me they had bases on Mars and Venus.
  "What about here on Earth?" I asked.
  "Not our bases, but UFO bases that all of us are cooperatively keeping here
on Earth. It's our mission as peaceful intelligences to maintain the balance
of the universe. With our terrestial bases, we can keep an eye on you.
  "In a few minutes, wer're going to see one of the bases here in South
America, but first you  must tell Rama where you want your car."
 I turned to Rama who was observing my reactions, and told her I was supposed
to go to a city called Trujillo and another called Chiclayo, both located on
the northern coast of Peru, 500 miles north of Lima.
  Somehow they hooked the VW up to the UFO. I could see it on the screen.  The
thought hit me, what would the car rental company think if they knew that
one of their cars made the 800 mile trip to Chiclayo in about nine minutes.
  When we were ready for take off, Rama exchanged some information with the
crew leader, then I was placed between them.
 "This machine is operated through reversible electromagnetism. "she
explained. "See those columns going to that rotor that looks like
transparent plastic?"
  "Yes," I said, nodding.
  "Well, those are reactors. When the mercury in that rotor gets going at full
speed, we can reverse the magnetic and electrical enregy. That way we can
control matter and also overcome the forces of gravity."
  When we took off, I felt a great force pulling my face muscles back. Even my
arms and shoulders were pushed flat against the chair. Rama told me not to
worry because that was due only to the great speed we were experiencing. We
hovered for a while over an old road that led to the Panamerican Highway,
near a little town not far from the city of Chiclayo. I didn't get out of
the aircraft. The crew unloaded the VW, and Rama said we would  leave it
there for an hour or two. Later she and I would come back in a vimana, which
was a smaller craft enough for two or three people.
  We ascended again, but at a lesser speed, flying over the Andes Mountains,
once more at an extreme altitude. I could see some commercial jetliners way
below us as tiny specks of light, their surfaces and expanded wings
reflecting the sun.
  As we decended gradually, I saw in the distance a great expanse of water,
Rama said it was the Titicaca Lake and that we would be entering it. My eyes
opened wide as I saw the lake approaching. I was expecting some kind of
crash or a marked change as we penetrated the surface tension of the water,
but it was  a smooth entry, nothing resembling a crash.
  We traveled underwater, the UFO navigating like a sophisticated submarine,
until we came to a UFO base under the lake, which was like a whole city.
The crew leader said this was the base that Rama had told me about when I
first met her.
  Suddexnly we were in the air again. The only sensation I felt during this
traxnsition was a slight change in density. As we flew through the clouds, I
saw ice covered mountains in the distance. I recognized them as the icy
peaks found about 25 miles from Huancayo and saw the Mantaro Valley with its
river slicig through the center of it.
  We landed close to the ice peaks, where Rama's vemana was waiting for us. I
thanked the crew leader for the tour. He said we would see each other again
in a few days.
  Rama and I flew to Chiclayo then, in a vimana that had been left hidden
behind some sand hills. When we returned to where the car had been left
earlier, I was still in a daze. It was hard to believe I had flown in two
UFOs. It had been the experience of my life.
End Part 3
This is me JW speaking now. Have you had you UFO ride today?
John Winston.
. He located our own sun, then he showed me his home planet on the map, which
appeared to be nothing more than a buncw

x?xgxKxUx'xx    x'x
Cx[xMx4
x%x|x'x1x>x<>|xx
xgxKxUx
'xx    x'xCx[xMx4
x%x|x'x1x>x<
0Roman 10cpiAmerica, but first you  must tell Rama where you want your
car."
 I turned to Rama who was observing my reac
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Here I am again.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:50:20 PST
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References:  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Folks: My computer konked out for a few days but I'll catch up with
you people later.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Date: 20 Jan 1993 15:35:50 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
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Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
had enough proof otherwise)?

Just asking.....

--
Kevin T. Stiner                    |"..because happiness is not
[e-mail]  |an ideal of reason but of
AMIGA 4000      Serial No. 000403  |imagination."
NeXT mail encouraged!!             |   --IMMANUEL KANT
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
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[e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>>
>>A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>>B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

>Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon platform or to set
>an altitude record and something went wrong and the crew was killed.  It
>would be very embarrassing public relations-wise if this go out.  This sounds
>like a plausible reason for secrecy.

    NO.  Too many similar incidents have occurred and been made public
in far shorter periods of time.

    The early crashes in the F117A program have been made public,
including the associated deaths of their pilots.  This took only about
10 years, perhaps a hair more, to become public knowledge.

    The US floated "weather balloons" over the USSR to gain recon
information.  Most of them were shot down.  This has been public knowledge
for years.

    The #2 XB70 crashed as the result of a stupid GE-sponsored
publicity stunt.  While that was NOT a black program, it sure as hell
was an embarrassment to the USAF et al.  That was out the same day it
happened.

    Even the CIA's early Blackbirds, the A12, is public knowledge
and after "only" about 25 years.  Likewise with the SR71.

    The balloon thing really just does NOT hold water.  Regardless of
just WHAT was being covered up, the type of balloon shown and other "facts"
do not fit what actually happened.  Doesn't mattter if it had ANYTHING to do
with aliens!  Somebody was covering SOMETHING up.

    The evidence and testimony *strongly* suggests that material
in crates was packed out and shipped elsewhere, most likely to Wright-Pat.
Even if you want to play it safe and say NO little bodies, just hardware,
the flight logs and the people exist(ed).  Stuff WAS crated away.

    And yet, this all started in July of 1947!  We're talking 40+ years
of probable cover-up of SOMETHING.

    Even WW2 secrets like ULTRA and ENIGMA et al have been outed, and
these were some of the most super heavy-duty secrets of that time.  If
what happened at Roswell is so important that it is STILL being covered
up, then it MUST make other secrets of its era (mid-forties) absolutely
PALE by comparison.

    So many other formerly secret things have come out where Roswell
has NOT, that we must think that there is something to it.  Like I
said, even if it has NOTHING to do with flying saucers, aliens, or
anything else extraterrestrial, it must have been mighty damn important
for USAF and the DOD to do the things they did and to STILL keep this
turkey under wraps.

    If you want to make cases, just start thinking about what kind
of things would be kept secret for THAT long and then start eliminating
the categories that have already been publically outed and you find
you aren't left with much.

    Possibilities - airplane with some nuclear device  in which there
was some sort of "accident"?  Maybe although certain other conditions
don't fit that scenario too well.  Too many highranking people poking
around the scene unshielded from potential radiation leaks - by 1947 the
effects of said radiation were pretty well known.  The world had two
samples to look at......

    Secret aircraft tests?  Maybe, but why do it over someones ranch
or as near to populated areas when you had Muroc (now Edwards AFB) in
California, a much more isolated site in those days?

    Must have been mighty important.....

Duane

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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 15:57:36 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>>   ...Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
>>   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
>>   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
>>   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.
>>
>>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>
>So you quit watching "lowbrow" shows enjoyed by people who are not "very
>well-read" and who "have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece of
>lawn furniture", and decided to engage in more intellectually stimulating
>pursuits, like reading Usenet newsgroups.  Big step up there, Peter.

  I didn't want to shock my system by making too big a leap.

  But there is one key difference between TV and Usenet, even if
  the intellectual level isn't very different (a debatable prop-
  osition).   Usenet is interactive.  In addition to its other
  shortcomings TV is very passive.  Even reading a book requires
  more input from the user because the author can only hint at
  what things look like or sound like -- the reader has to fill
  in the details.  Sometimes my wife and I like to play a little
  game where we take some scene from a book that we've both read
  and describe in detail features about a character or a setting
  that the author DIDN'T describe, and see how similar our
  descriptions are.

  The TV networks make insultingly low assumptions about their
  viewers.   Recently I was reading an article in Scientific
  American.  I don't even remember what it was about, but I
  remember thinking, "Isn't it nice that the authors can use
  these terms and these (mathematical) expressions and not have
  to take time out to *EXPLAIN* them?"   Scientific American
  is for LAY readers -- the authors of the articles have already
  published their research in peer-reviewed journals and now
  they're just writing for the rest of us who are not chemists
  or physicists or biologists, but just want to keep up in
  general sort of way with those things.

  Scientific American assumes a general undergraduate college
  -science level of understanding, that's all.  There are
  probably *millions* of people in the US who can handle it.

  TV has nothing like this.  The closest program is probably
  PBS's NOVA, and that's probably no better than high-school
  science.  NOVA is constantly interrupting itself to explain
  the meaning of some term or concept that I think a well-educated
  person should already understand.

  This "dumbing down" has serious implications for sci.skeptic
  and similar newsgroups.   Some of us here have been appalled
  by the gullibility and lack of basic understanding of science
  displayed by many posters here.   Since Americans are voracious
  TV-watchers, maybe "smarter" TV could help correct it.  (he
  said optimistically)


---peter





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From: [e-mail] (Duncan D. Sterling)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 15:54:36 GMT
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The problem with all this conjecture is very simple. It was in fact the
base public affairs officer (the official mouthpiece of the base
commander) who first told reporters in Roswell about the "captured saucer".]

It wasn't until 2 days later that he contradicted himself, and came up
with the weather balloon story.  To further complicate matters, Documents
obtained through FOIA requests have made specific refererence to the
"captured craft".

On top of all this, if it really had been a weather balloon, and the inci-
dent had really been classified because of radar involvment, it would have
also been declassified a long time ago (by regulation documents are
classified for a finite period of time, then declassified after review,
or very rarely, reclassified.  Generally Top Secret is held up to 25 years
before review, Secret for up to 10 years, and confidential up to 2 years.)

Let's face it--something very unusuall happened at Rosswell, and we may
not find out what it was for a long time, unless some intrepid researcher,
or party to the original incident blows its cover.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duncan Sterling          [e-mail]   GT750L, KH500A8, CA175K3
University of Maryland    "Yeeehaaa!" - Slim Pickens in "Dr. Strangelove"
College Park, Md.         "2 strokes are quicker than 4" - anonymous
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!buffalo
From: [e-mail] (Duncan D. Sterling)
Subject: Re: The "New Fizziks"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
>
>    I was recently fumbling through our "extensive" (yah, right) library
>here at the university, and encountered a strange book by Bob Tobin,
>featuring ideas by Fred Wolf and our friend Jack Sarfatti.
>    It is called "Space-Time and beyond", and it looks (and reads) much
>like a kiddie book.  In it, a cornucopia of wierd "facts" and "theories" are
>presented, all about this "new physics" we've been hearing about here
>recently.  THis book attempts to explain everything from telepathy to
>healing and levitation, all through "explanations" in physics.  Actually,
>the explanations are about one page long each, and hardly convincing in the
>least, as they just present a potpourri of quotes pulled out of context from
>various important physicists like Einstein, astronomers like James Jeans and
>others.
>
>    I wouldn't recommend anyone get this book unless they are into the
>New Age, 'cause it reads like one of those flakey manuals of that movement.
>    However, take it as you will, these ideas ARE interesting, if
>amusing...
>

Yes, it may appear simplistic, and a bit child-like, but let's look at it
within the right context:  the book is not aimed at scientists, but at
absolutely-know-nothing lay people, who may not even grasp the most basic
knowledge of math and physics theory.

If we want to see the cause of science advance (particularly front line
theoretical physics research), the public (read that "taxpayers") must
believe there's "something in it for them".  This sort of book is, whether
we like it or not, one of the best ways to raise the conciousnesses of the
"great unwashed", and ultimately serves us all.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duncan Sterling          [e-mail]   GT750L, KH500A8, CA175K3
University of Maryland    "Yeeehaaa!" - Slim Pickens in "Dr. Strangelove"
College Park, Md.         "2 strokes are quicker than 4" - anonymous
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Bob)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 13:58:50 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>
>Ask Don about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  _Then_ praise him.


Indeed.
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Keywords: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:23:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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>Okay folks,

>Although this has been more interesting than most issues that have been
>discussed here lately in a.a.v, IT IS TIME ONCE AGAIN TO GET BACK TO THE
>SUBJECT.

>STTG & STDS9 have their own newsgroup called
>rec.arts.startrek.current----GO THERE!!!!

>NUFF SAID;-|

Scott Erb<writes>:

>>I disagree.  The themes being dealt with in these postings relate to the
>>newsgroups being posted to (some more than others, obviously).  Diversity
of
>>subject matter is a part of this whole thing, you can skip over what you
do
>>not want to read.  So I will post where I want to post, regardless of
your
>>rather rude response.  So there.

Mr. Erb,

The discussion about STDS9 that has occured here in a.a.v has nothing to do
with frigging UFOS, Aliens, or anything else that would be deemed
appropiate for this forum, furthermore, there are people whom believe that
we shouldn't have to wade through all this CRAP to discuss what this
newsgroup was intended for.


Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:35:26 GMT
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Peter Nelson<writes>:

>>If you have some evidence of anything extraterrestrial
>>  going on at Roswell or anywhere else then let's see it.
>>  Don't expect everybody to do your work for you!  Talk
>>  is cheap and Occam's razor says if there is anything secret
>>  going on at a military base it's more likely to be a
>>  military secret than an alien spaceship.


Peter,

Regardless of what occured at Roswell, it disturbs me with all the evidence
pointing towards something very unusual occuring that hot July night back
in 47' that you can just sheepishly be fed a load of crud & like it.

There is a plethora of evidence supporting that something did happen that
night, & it appeared not to be of this world. If my hard earned tax dollars
are being spent to cover this thing up, I for one want to know about it. If
you condone this form of activity, then you deserve exactly what they feed
you.

The National Security veil is the most abused peace of legislation that
there is involving UFOs & anything else they want to hide.

Rod



--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:41:17 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:
>I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
>that are secret.
>
>But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>
>A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

>>Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon platform or to
set
>>an altitude record and something went wrong and the crew was killed.  It
>>would be very embarrassing public relations-wise if this go out.  This
sounds
>>like a plausible reason for secrecy.

>>Rob U


FOR 45 Years.........Oh come on now!!!!!!


Rod



--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13625 alt.alien.visitors:12753 sci.skeptic:37198
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci22.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 19:53:14 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

>Mr. Erb,

>The discussion about STDS9 that has occured here in a.a.v has nothing to do
>with frigging UFOS, Aliens, or anything else that would be deemed
>appropiate for this forum, furthermore, there are people whom believe that
>we shouldn't have to wade through all this CRAP to discuss what this
>newsgroup was intended for.

Although I really don't have much more to say about DS9 or ST:NG on this
subject (I think I got my point across in two posts, and I understand Peter'
s points), I do want to respond to the above comment because it is, I
believe, based on flawed logic.  First, Star Trek DOES deal with UFOs and
aliens, in that it is an example of how popular culture in the U.S.
understands them.  This may not be a direct link, but it is A link.  Second,
it deals with sci.skeptic, for similar reasons.  Statements on the net
sometimes start conversations that veer from the subject.  That's OK.  In
fact, that's normal.  That's how the exchange of ideas operates, and one
shouldn't try to straight jacket all communication into a particular person'
s definition of what is appropriate.  Once a newsgroup is created, it is
part of a forum that allows its users to define its purpose.  That's
democracy, good or bad.
    You, of course, are always free to express your distaste at how
particular conversations are going, and to try to convince others to hold
to particular themes.  But if people disagree with you, tough luck.  It
might actually be more effective if you took a more civil approach.  Instead
of "crap" "NUFF SAID" and such rather childish displays of machoism on the
usernet, you could explain what your idea was of the newsgroup, why you
think the discussion is inappropriate, and ask politely for people to
consider holding the conversation elsewhere or through personal email.  Such
civility may be contrary to your personality, but you might find that people
would be more likely to understand your view and you may convince them to
act accordingly.  When you sound like a little Hitler trying to say "this is
the subject damn it and you better follow my ideas on what we discuss" you
come off as petty and there isn't much incentive to do what you want.

Regards,
Scott
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Keywords: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:54:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
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>
>Mr. Erb,
>
>The discussion about STDS9 that has occured here in a.a.v has nothing to do
>with frigging UFOS, Aliens, or anything else that would be deemed
>appropiate for this forum, furthermore, there are people whom believe that
>we shouldn't have to wade through all this CRAP to discuss what this
>newsgroup was intended for.
>

In other words: "Take your crap elsewhere so we can put more of OUR crap
on."  That's what alt.alien.visitors is, right?

--
***************************************************************************
"I was pleased to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn't
 know."----- Mark Twain, _Life on the Mississippi_
Jason "[e-mail]" Corley Was Here But Isn't Anymore
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:26:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
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Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>
>>>>BUT!!! I fully defend John's First Amendment Right to speak his
>>>>piece as he pleases.
>>
>>   The First Amendment is not an issue here.  There is nothing
>>   about the First Amendment that that requires that anyone
>>   provide a *forum* for someone's opinions.  Neither Usenet
>>   nor anyone else is obligated to allow John to post his
>>   views.   He's free to publish his own newspaper and the
>>   government cannot censor him.  he's free to get up on his
>>   soapbox in the city park, (etc).  That's the extent of
>>   it.


>Peter...this is poppycock!!!!! As long as John or any poster
>maintains their postings within the realm of reasonable
>civility...most companies couldn't even care less never mind
>police the damned net!

  What does this have to do with what I said?!    What I said
  is the the First Amendment doesn't obligate anyone (in-
  cluding Usenet or any institution on Usenet) to provide
  Winston with a forum.


>It is raw anarchy. And as long as John pleases his employer
>with quality work that meest all deadlines why should his
>employer give a damn? Answer is...his employer DOESN'T give a
>damn.

  Again, this has nothing to do with what I posted.   So if
  you're going to call my comments "poppycock" the least you
  could do is justify that description.


>                              ....don't you know how to use
>the kill function?????

  Yes, in fact Winston IS in my kill file.  The problem is
  that that doesn't stop me from having to read RESPONSES
  to his idiotic drivel, including the drivel itself in ">"'s.


>There are ways of ensuring that specific posters or subjects
>NEVER show up on your screen

  It's too much effort to have to update the SUBJECT:'s
  in my kill file every time he introduces a new one,
  which he does sometimes several times a day.


....why dont you do that instead
>of sitting here pissing and moaning like a spoiled child?

  They have remedial reading classes for adults, you know.
  Show us one place where I've pissed and moaned on the
  subject of Winston.  My only comment on him up until
  this posting was on the First Amendment issue, above.


---peter





Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:33:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes...

>>
>>  Look, for those of you who just arrived on this planet, or
>>  think you did, let me explain something:   THE MILITARY
>>  DOES LOTS OF THINGS IN SECRET.   This has been true for
>>  years, in many countries and many branches of the service.
>>  It's called "national security".  I have no problem with
>>  this and I see no reason why they should waste their time
>>  and my tax money answering questions or explaining things
>>  to every flake who comes down the road with some fuzzy,
>>  grainy pictures of something that might not be a weather
>>  balloon.

>
>I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
>that are secret.
>
>But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>
>A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

  Because maybe it WASN'T just a weather balloon!    Sheesh!

  Maybe "it's just a weather balloon" is military PR talk for
  "Nose out because we're working on secret stuff here and
  we're not going to tell you anything else."


>BTW: This is one of the classical, unanswered questions in the Roswell
>case.

  No, it's one of the classical, stupid questions in the Roswell
  case.


---peter






Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:48:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 72

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>Peter Nelson<writes>:
>
>>>If you have some evidence of anything extraterrestrial
>>>  going on at Roswell or anywhere else then let's see it.
>>>  Don't expect everybody to do your work for you!  Talk
>>>  is cheap and Occam's razor says if there is anything secret
>>>  going on at a military base it's more likely to be a
>>>  military secret than an alien spaceship.
>
>
>Peter,
>
>Regardless of what occured at Roswell, it disturbs me with all the evidence
>pointing towards something very unusual occuring that hot July night back
>in 47' that you can just sheepishly be fed a load of crud & like it.

  It's not a question of "liking it", it's just that this is how
  the military likes to work: in secret.


>There is a plethora of evidence supporting that something did happen that
>night, & it appeared not to be of this world.

  Says you.  I've never seen a shred of anything I would class as
  "evidence" that there was anything "not of this world" there.
  The problem is that UFO enthusiasts have a much looser definition
  of "evidence" than I do.   Personal testimonials and poor-quality
  fuzzy, or otherwise questionable photographs are the best we've
  been offered in nearly 50 years of UFO hunting.  No physical evidence,
  no photographic or video evidence of an alleged alien spaceship
  interacting with other people or items in the scene (so as to
  corroborate the pictures), etc.    Very weak stuff.


>                                    If my hard earned tax dollars
>are being spent to cover this thing up, I for one want to know about it. If
>you condone this form of activity, then you deserve exactly what they feed
>you.

  It's not a question of "condoning" it.  My opinions about the use
  and abuse of "national security" are orthogonal to the topic.
  The bottom line remains that you have no good evidence of anything
  extraterrestrial going on at Roswell or elsewhere.


>The National Security veil is the most abused peace of legislation that
>there is involving UFOs & anything else they want to hide.

  True.  But that's the way of the world.  According to the current
  issue of the Economist, the British still have military secrets
  from WW I !

  The bottom line remains:  if you're going to claim that something
  of extraterrstrial origin is/was at Roswell or anywhere else on
  Earth it's up to you to come up with the evidence.   Really big
  secrets have a way of getting out and NOTHING IN HUMAN HISTORY
  would be bigger than aliens at an Air Force or Army base.   They
  couldn't keep it a secret when US forces entered Cambodia or
  bombed a hospital in Hanoi, or plenty of other things that they
  hoped to keep secret.

  The ball is really in your court.


---peter





Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 15:25:40 -0500
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Eyewitness Video
Lines: 31


Did anyone see the Eyewitness Video show that had a special on crop circles?
I thought it was incredibly biased the way they just showed how a bunch
of losers went out in the crop fields and made circles using night vision
in the middle of the night.  It was so biased that they just finished the
story by saying how that wrapped up the mystery of the crop circles and it
is forever labeled a hoax without looking at more evidence such as a
comparison of the circles the hoaxers made with other circles people
have seen after seeing large glowing lights above the fields the night
they they were made.  And they also didn't show the actual result of the
crop circle
scientifically, they did not show that the ones the hoaxers made probably
broke the stems while the other crop circles found had no stems broken
(which requires a TREMENDOUS force downwards) and some were genetically
altered,
which I doubt the hoaxers would attempt to do.  Also, there were articles
from hoaxers that made some crop circles and they claimed themselves
that they did not produce all of the crop circles which again,
Eyewitness Video
did not tell us.

I don't think that TV show ever examined one of their videos before the way
they did in that show with the crop circles, and they did a really bad job
in attempting to do so because it was so one-sided and biased.  I called
their 800 number and told them what I thought about that show and how
biased it was and they said they were flooded with phone calls from many
other people making the same comment.

What do you think about that Eyewitness Video show that had the crop circles?


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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Don't worry be happy.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 06:38:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: Boy, you people have really put on a lot of postings
since I've been gone. I'm  still not caught up. All I have to say is,
don't worry be happy.
John Winston.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 06:41:14 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I still have not time to say anything now.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 06:42:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: All is well in California.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re^2: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellabh
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 18:31:20 GMT
Lines: 25

Len Bucuvalas writes:

>...
>So...you think that the name "Earthlings" sounds sophisticated? NASA
>designates all planets in any system by their star + orbital
>position.ergo...Reticulum3 = third planet from Zeta reticulum...or
>SOL3 = third planet from our sun designated as SOL.
>

I have to call you on this one.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last
I saw in the literature (astronomical, not ufological) is that the
existence of extrasolar planets is still very much in doubt.  There
are a few stars which appear to have massive subluminous companions
and Beta Pictoris has a nice dust disk that could have or be coalescing
into planets, but there's nothing proven.  What NASA publication
referred to such a naming scheme?

>I suppose we can also be called Solarians! Dont let the terminlogy get
>in the way of understanding the research. Words are an arbitrary point
>of reference to provide clarity for the reader..that's all.

No argument.

J. Johnson
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:18:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca.
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



I caught the last ten minutes or so of the first episode.  What I want
to know is, what's wrong with the uppity broad's nose???



Geoff


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller            + + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
[e-mail]    + + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Here I am again.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:41:38 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: My computer konked out for a few days but I'll catch up with
> you people later.
> John Winston.

Phew. John, you had me worried there for awhile...

-G


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!mucs!lucs!u2nmh
From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 11:35:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Wayne Smith ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Concerning this case: with all the apparent debris lying around, and all the
people who were supposed to have been at or near the site, why isn't it that
someone kept some of the strange material as a keepsake? And if someone did
keep some of it what would happen if they went public with it??

> Cheers,
> Wayne

--Judging by past cases, a government agency representative would make a visit
to them to ask them to hand the material over. If they refuse, the government
gets someone to break in and search the house and take it once found.

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Date: 21 Jan 1993 01:10:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  I agree.   Discussions about Star Trek or the value of TV
>  have little relationship to alt.alien.visitors or sci.skeptic.

I don't know much about the a.a.v. crowd, but I think this discussion
is perfectly relevant to sci.skeptic.  You're making claims about the
literacy and intellectual capacity of STTNG fans, and suggesting that
people who enjoy television are inferior to you.  These are unsupported
assertions that are just _begging_ for a skeptical response.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Date: 20 Jan 1993 19:09:48 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
>Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
>these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
>circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
>had enough proof otherwise)?

It certainly explains some of them, but definitely not all.  For
intance, the method they used (using a 2x4 board with a rope connected
to each end) breaks the crops.  In some of the crop circles, none of the
crops are harmed and contunue to grow.  I also saw something on a TV
interview with one of the "Circle Experts" (an easy title to gain since
very little is known about them - nevertheless...) said that in the
circles that were deemed "authentic", genetic damage is done to the seed
embreos (sp?) indside the circle area, while the crops outside the
circle were unharmed.  They showed pictures of healthy crops and ones
supposedly from the circle under a microscope.  On the same show, they
also showed a complex circle which VERY CLOSELY resembled a mandelbrot
picture.

As far as the speculations for their cause, it's as wide ranged as oit
ever was.  I remeber hearing a report saying the speculated causes
ranged from UFO's to votexes of air, to hedgehogs running in a circle
(and of course, hoaxes).  I particularly enjoyed the "headghog" anwer :-).

>Just asking.....
>
>--
>Kevin T. Stiner                    |"..because happiness is not
>[e-mail]  |an ideal of reason but of
>AMIGA 4000      Serial No. 000403  |imagination."
>NeXT mail encouraged!!             |   --IMMANUEL KANT

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

UseNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Amiga 2000!
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mr Sceptic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 23:42:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Setec Astronomy
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>  Last fall some religious group started plastering this area
>  with posters telling us that the Second Coming would occur in
>  October.   Guess what?   The posters are all still up but nothing
>  happened.

Well, to quote the Jacson Browne lyric:

   "Don't think it won't happen just because it hasn't happened yet."

>  Some people will believe anything.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've lost my copy of the "Logical Fallacies" list, but I think
this is a Number Four, "Hasty Generalization".

--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:56:19 GMT
Lines: 64

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
|>
|> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
|> [...]
|> >   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
|> >   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
|> >   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
|> >   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
|>
|> I still disagree.  In the last couple of years ST:NG has dealt with medical
|> ethics, gender issues, parenting, the futility of war, justice (in many
|> different ways), cultural relativism and multiculturalism, the relation of
|> technology to science, and to life, and I could go on and on.  [...]

I watch ST:TNG all the time and consider it a relatively interesting
show.  But - to claim that it has "dealt with" any of these issues
in anything more than a superficial way is rather an exaggeration.

Let's take the show on gender identity you mentioned as an example.

  1) The show soft-peddled the issue by inventing a race of neuter
     humanoids and having the character of interest secretly identify
     herself as female.  In short: they picked a race that the
     audience would consider strange and had the "abnormal" behavior
     be what the audience would consider normal.  To really deal
     with the issue of gender identity problems they would have
     to have a *human* who wishes a sex change.

  2) The show (in the Love Boat tradition of several parallel plots)
     devoted only a fraction of the episode to the question.  Hardly
     time to really deal with such a complicated issue.

  3) The character is question had none of the pathos of a person who
     *really* has gender identity problems.  There was no hint of depression,
     suicidal tendencies, false joviality (to cover the first two), and
     probably huge numbers of other symptoms which I don't know because
     I've never personally studied the disorder.  In short, the show
     trivialized the issue.

  4) The show resorted to a techno-babble solution of an overnight "cure"
     for the character.  Talk about trivializing an issue.  If there really
     were an overnight *cure* for gender identity problems, there would
     soon be no such problems.

This last point is a particular flaw of the Star Trek series (TNG or any
of the rest).  They always manage to come up with a complete solution
with no residual effects in the last 10 minutes of the show.  It's often
this techno-babble type of solution, but not always.  Sometimes it's
another kind of babble.  For example, when there's a brewing war and
Jean-Luc finds a simple and completely acceptable compromise at the
last minute which leaves both sides of the potential war completely
amicable.  Is this really sophistication in drama?  Or is it just
sophistry?  Real social problems just don't go away - and seldom
do technical problems for that matter (new technological techniques
require considerable break-in time).

To say that a show is relatively interesting (compared to other TV
fare) and even to say that it's relatively intelligent (compared to
other TV fare) is not really saying much.  Stat Trek is *entertaining*.
It needn't be intellectually sophisticated for that.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 23:15:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
|> [...]
|> Some of the shows really blow me away with the power of their message, as
|> did the first Deep Space Nine episode which dealt with a powerful emotional
|> theme, the nature of time, and a bit tension and drama.  [...]
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That was one of the most comical sequences I've ever encountered.  These
alians conduct a discussion with the human character in an ordered sequence
of topics, inferences, etc. and yet claim to be ignorant of the nature of
time.  If they can conduct an ordered interview, they know of time.

--
J. Giles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Moderated Group/John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 02:13:04 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  It's too much effort to have to update the SUBJECT:'s
>  in my kill file every time he introduces a new one,
>  which he does sometimes several times a day.
>
>
>....why dont you do that instead
>>of sitting here pissing and moaning like a spoiled child?
>
>  They have remedial reading classes for adults, you know.
>  Show us one place where I've pissed and moaned on the
>  subject of Winston.  My only comment on him up until
>  this posting was on the First Amendment issue, above.
>
>
>---peter
>

[e-mail] - added to the 'ol kill file; TOO MUCH WHINING!
JEFF-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Once StarTr D9/now Regulating Bullshit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 15
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:11:11 GMT

Who cares what people write here......if it begins as something intended
for this news group....fine. But if people want to bullshit further on
whether this and that is intellectual or not who cares. People are going
to do and say what they think (including me) even if it has nothing to
do with the orginal posted topic. Beam yourself North Korea...where they
stay stick to the set rules of society. Talk about our leader. Hang our
leader on the wall and Sing stupid songs aout our leader. And if u deviate
any from the norm of these tasks lets blow the horn....
                     Bite the Big one ron.

Even if people are saying nothing but bullshit...let the conversation go
to its end. Most will get bored anyway, and what right do u possess to regulate
it.
____

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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 19:34:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
>>that are secret.
>>
>>But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>>
>>A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>>B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?
>
>Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon platform or to set
>an altitude record and something went wrong and the crew was killed.  It
>would be very embarrassing public relations-wise if this go out.  This sounds
>like a plausible reason for secrecy.
>

Or maybe it was one of those 23 billion dollar weather balloons and they
didn't want people to know they wasted so much money on a balloon that
didn't even work.  That seems more likely.

Or, maybe they're just being perverse.  "What?  A bunch of loonies waving
grainy photographs?  Screw 'em.  Ahhh, nope!  Sorry, it's a secret!
(Hee hee..look at them run..hee hee hee.)"

I'd sure be tempted to do it.

--
***************************************************************************
"I was pleased to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn't
 know."----- Mark Twain, _Life on the Mississippi_
Jason "[e-mail]" Corley Was Here But Isn't Anymore
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From: [e-mail] (Carole Fretts)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe Bob) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>
>>Ask Don about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  _Then_ praise him.
>
>
>Indeed.

Ok, I will.  Don Allen, do you have "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?
If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy.

Thanks!
Carole
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: I'm back.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:34:47 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Everbody: I just got back on the Net. It's sort of like the sign
>they had out in front of the psychic's convention that said, "Cancelled
>due to unforseen difficulties. I'll catch up with you people later.
>John Winston.

Oh no, he forgot to close the quote marks!  That means that everything
I'm typing here is actually part of what the sign said!  Waah!  I feel
my copyright to this text slipping away!

                    -- K."

P.S.  Hi, sillm.

From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 16:19:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Peter Nelson writes:
   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.

   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
   fiction!

Peter, I very much take exception to this.  I thought you were better
informed.  I, as an engineer, know many engineers who love Star Trek for
the moral, ethical, political and human rights issues it consistently
raises with a thin veneer of sci-fi, and I'll bet if you surveyed the
engineers at the Chelmsford plant, you'd find an awful lot of other Trekkers.
Star Trek derives many of its themes from Shakespeare, and many of the
actors are Shakespearean.  I am not sure there IS such a thing as an
average Star trek viewer.  As has been told many times, it runs the gamut
from children to NASA rocket scientists.  I consider myself to be very well
read, and I don't mean sci-fi.  Television is an eye on our society, and
Star Trek represents humankinds best hopes and dreams for a future we
can be proud of.  If that's what you call lowbrow, so be it.  Thanks for
your opinions, but you're WRONG!

By the way, what's this doing in alt.alien.visitors?  There is a
rec.arts.startrek.<current,info,misc,tech,fandom> group for discussions
like this!

Brian

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From: [e-mail] (Mark Stretch)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Weather Report.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 16:00:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 14

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Dear Weather Watchers: The weather reports here in sunny Northern
>Caif. for the last week has been, floods, blizzards, earthquakes,
>funnel clouds (any other place they call them tornadoes) and more
>to come. It's got to where we have National  Reports on T.V. with
>all sorts of forcasts. As they say in Hawaii something about be
>happy.
>John Winston.
It can't be that bad, cause there's nothing on european TV about it.

WAIT, what am I doing sending a serious reply to John_-_Von Daniken.

ctrl-c, ctrl-c, Abort, exterminate, ctrl-alt-explode.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 03:10:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to [e-mail] (Michael Lynch):
>>According to [e-mail] (Don Allen):
>>> Sheesh..why do I bother reading this newsgroup?
>>
>>Don't stop!!  You and a few others are the only reason I still subscribe
>>to this group.  Your posts are sane and informative, and always interesting.
>
>Ask Don about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  _Then_ praise him.
>--
>Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
>  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
>   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
>   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"

Yo Dickhead! :-)

You looking for a fight? Well stick your head up and your ass and fight for
AIR you insignificant little dweeb.

HAR HAR HA,I kill me....

Psstt..come up close here..
                             .
                                .
                                  .
                                   *#$


Why don't you post your address so I can you a dollar to buy a clue.?

I already settled this in email so WHY are you deliberately provoking
a negative response and casting apersions about _my_ character when
you know less than dog shit about me or what things *I* go through?

You don't know jack shit about me bub, and considering the way you've
consistently mis-characterized me tells me that you aren't even worth
the value of fly excreta as a person. I want nothing to do with you or
"your kind"..in other words, go peddle it somewheres else and keep your
smart assed remarks to yourself for if you don't I will surely add your
name encoded in a most derogatory way conceivable in every *text* I
disseminate , which I might add is a considerable amount. Your choice.

"Your move, creep"



--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Watkeys)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 93 05:48:12 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Distant Software
Lines: 95
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v2


In article <[e-mail]> (talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic), [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>
> >>I second this.  Star Trek constantly interweaves drama and suspense with
> >>social, philosophical and even spiritual issues, making it perhaps the most
> >>intellectually stimulating set of shows on the tube today.
>
> >   Which is a bit like saying that "Gertrude, here, is the furriest
> >   goldfish in my aquarium".    Granted, Star Trek may be intellectually
> >   stimulating compared to, say, Monday Night Football, or intellectually
> >   stimulating if you have the intellect of a potted plant of a piece
> >   of lawn furniture.    But that's as far as it goes.
>
> >   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
> >   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
> >   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
> >   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>
> I still disagree.  In the last couple of years ST:NG has dealt with medical
> ethics, gender issues, parenting, the futility of war, justice (in many
> different ways), cultural relativism and multiculturalism, the relation of
> technology to science, and to life, and I could go on and on.  As a social
> scientist with an interest in physics and science, I can accept some non-
> scientific aspects in order to deal with problems of our society in a
> differnt context.  The idealism of ST:NG (we can achieve something better)
> is also a needed addition to our cynical (and as your posting shows
> sometimes hypercritical :> ) culture.  It's also NOT low brow.  I recognize
> attempts to deal with different philosophical positions and issues in those
> episodes.  Granted, this is done subtely and the average viewer may not
> recognize them all the time, but it does have to appeal to a mass market to
> stay on the air.  It's an art to do that while saying something, and given
> the number of educated people who enjoy it, you are probably somewhat
> presumptuous in your comments.  OK, more than somewhat.
>
> >>  Granted, the original is 60s TV and can't be judged by 90s standards.
>
> >   Please restate:  are you saying that 90's standards are better or
> >   worse than 60's standards?
>
> Much worse.  The role of women, minorities and the ability to deal with
> social issues was very difficult in the sixties.  In fact, many
> controversial ideas of Gene Roddenberry (dealing with racism and sexism) for
> the original show were nixed by studio execs.  I'm sure this still happens
> with the new shows, but the opportunities have expanded greatly.
>
> >> And some of the episodes are rather bland (that can be said about every
> >> series).
> >
> >   Not to mention every show.
>
> Only if you don't think about them and just want to sit there and be
> entertained.  Then it will be bland.
>
> >   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
> >   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
> >   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
> >   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
> >   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
> >   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
> >   fiction!
>
> Perhaps the average viewer.  But I've read many diverse subjects, and while
> classical Greek literature and the bible and SHakespeare are good, fiction
> doesn't stop being good just because it becomes modern.  Shakespeare was
> criticized in his day for appealing to the masses and lacking intellect as
> well.  Also, many modern issues aren't dealt with in those classics.
> Furthermore, TV is also a form of art.  Just like many plays are rather bad
> and die out, so do many TV shows.  Some live on, and for TV, Star Trek is
> one because it deals with philosophical issues.  Your above paragraph smacks
> again of intellectual arrogance and lack of tolerance.  Furthermore, I could
> give some very critical remarks about especially the Bible and Greek
> classical literature, but that would be another subject.
>
> >---peter
>
> - Scott
>
If Peter didn't mention the Bible, I would have thought that he was a victim
of Ayn Rand. The Simpsons comment is what got me really wondering. I personally
think that the Simpsons is one of the best shows on television. Things such
as mob behavior and the hypocrisy of most of society's inhabitants are constant
sources of material in the show. The show could easily be called "Young
Friedrich Nietzsche in Late Twentieth Century Suburbia." There is so much depth
and texture to the show you truly get out of it what you put in in terms of the
effort you exert in watching it. Also, it's actually funny, and it doesn't
have a laugh track, which makes it unique in the television industry.

Ed

--
Edwin H. Watkeys III                                   [e-mail]
Distant Software                               dsinc!jabber!distant!edw
[phone]                                     [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:32:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
> Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
> these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
> circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
> had enough proof otherwise)?
>

The two guys you are referring to are Dave Bower and Doug Chorley. Although
originally they seem to have claimed to make all the circles on cross examination
they seem to have actually made maybe not quite 200. There are 3000-4000
reports from the UK alone, without any in other countries.

It should be made clear that all of the circles researchers I have spoken to
have always accepted that at least some of the circles were hoaxes. They have
frequently disagreed about what proportion were hoaxes, and from what is
now coming out, would seem to have underestimated the problem. When I spoke
to researcher Paul Fuller last Saturday he told me that more groups of hoaxers
had come forward and some of them were being very helpful in identifying
which formations they had made. In some cases they identified circles which
researchers had suspected as being hoaxes. In others they identified formations
which researchers had not suspected as being hoaxes. The researchers are
going to have to rethink what they think are genuine or otherwise.

The circles researchers still think there is a small proportion which are a
genuine phenomenon, although as usual they disagree on what proportion and
what the phenomenon is.

The explanations seem to break down into three groups :

    1. All circles are hoaxes
    2. Many (most) circles are hoaxes, but a few are caused by natrural
           phenomena
    3. Many (most) circles are hoaxes, but a few are caused by mysterious
       forces or intelligences. I believe this is what you mean by caused
           by aliens. To give the researchers their due, I am not sure any
           of them have called this aliens, just mysterious intelligences.
           Other people have taken this to mean aliens.

(By researchers, I mean people that go and do field research, not people like
 me who read about it in books)

For what it is worth, in order of probability I think 2, then 1, then (maybe) 3.
Unless there is some other option we have not considered.
Steve

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Markowski)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Service)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
writes:
|>   Really big secrets have a way of getting out and NOTHING IN HUMAN HISTORY
|>   would be bigger than aliens at an Air Force or Army base.

I agree.  To study an extraterrestrial vehicle or crew would require a
large and diverse group of scientists and engineers.  It's very unlikely
that these would all be military sympathizers to the extent that they
would seal this off from the world.  Someone would tell his wife or best
friend or let it slip on his death bed, etc.

After so many decades the most likely reason an et vehicle could remain
secret is if something so big or so bad were discovered that it left no
doubt in anyone's mind that it should remain secret.  But in that case, we
should observe some major shift in governmental goals and policies, and
we haven't.  Consider NASA's continuing quest for a reasonable budget.

Secrets surrounding aircraft at night make us curious, but more shouldn't
be read into it than the known facts can support.

--
Mike Markowski
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moderated Newsgroup
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 06:49:28 PST
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Dear Thinkers: Well I hear that the Great Kibo refers to me as being
human. Thanks very much. That is the nicest thing anyone has called me
in months.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel R. Oldham)
Subject: Cleveland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administrator)
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Everything is fine here in Cleveland.

dano:
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFO Genius.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 20:18:12 PST
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Subject: UFO Genius.
  I have just come up with a cure for some of you people that have the
audacity to question my veracity. We're going to do to you what the space
people did to a janitor. Here's what they did;...A stupid janitor was turned
into a brainy mathematics genius after he waa given brain surgery by UFO
aliens!
 Maintenance man Anatoly Popov, 27, was reportedly abducted by space aliens
while returning home from work at a large food-processing plant in Odessa,
Russia.
 Authorities became alarmed after Popov failed to come home to his wife,
Irina, and their 10-month-old son. He was officially listed as a missing
person five  days later when no traces of him were found.
  Police initially suspected foul play, although they could find no motive for
anyone wanting to harm the janitor, who had a sixth-grade education.
  The shocking truth about what really happened was revealed 13 days later
when Anatoly was returned to Earth by the UFO aliens.  He was beamed back to
the factory gates of his workplace at precisely 6 a.m. to start work.
Stunned co-workers report that Anatoly's uniform appeared especially clean
and he had a "special glow" on his face.
  But the biggest shock of all came when he started talking  and suddenly
sounded like Albeert Einstein instead of a simple clean-up man.
  "Anatoly was like a whole new person," says factory foremen Boris Spednesky.
 "He spoke very eloquently like a college professor. I asked him where he'd
been and he said he had visited the outer reaches of the universe with
beings far more advanced than humans.
  "He said they abducted him from outside the factory and took him to a
beautiful planet where he was treated very  well. Alien doctors examined him
and performed some super-advanced treatments on his brain."
 Anatoly's new genius IQ was demonstrated within minutes after his return when
the plant's generators failed, endangering millions of dollares of frozen
food.
  "It was an emergency that could have been devastating to the company." says
foreman Spednesky. "But Anatoly told me he could fix the problem, and he
started sputtering off some complicated mathematical equations.
 "I couldn't understand the mathematics, of course, but within 45 minutes he
got the plant back to normal operation."
 Anatoly has since been examined by doctors at the Russian Institute of Health
who have confirmed that he is now a genius. After taking brain scans and EKG
tests, experts concluded that his mind was altered by the UFO aliens.
  "In effect, he had a brain transplant and is now the only human being to
have the brain of a far more intelligent species," says Dr. Rudolf Teslan.
Source of Information: 26-Sun-December 22, 21992.
JW speaking. What do you think of that?
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Smoking
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 20:29:28 PST
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  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Dear Folks: I agree with Jean that too much smoking of Ziggurates is
bad for you.
John Winston.
From: [e-mail] (Libby Simpson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 21:40:30 GMT
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Litton Systems, Toronto ONT
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My sentiments exactly!!!!!!!!!! this "brain" has an imagination
that would best be served by writing fiction and selling it to
low budget movie monguls.   He wastes valuable network resources
with all the crap that dreams up every night.  Everytime I see
a posting from this dude, I avoid reading it, because its always
sounds like some weird stuff he made up in a dream.AABCCCCCCD~BDDD
Its not just me feeling this way, its also my other friends feel
the same way too.  John Winston, with all the crap you write
you give the REAL honest to goodness UFO researchers a bad name!
Libby Simpson
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: The Integratron.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 21:00:21 PST
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Subject: The Integratron.
  Although life on Venus is not in the physical as we know it and we probubly
couldn't see the people who are there with our physical eyes there are
people who live there. They are in the fourth dimension.
  One of the things that they have there that we might like is called the
Integratron. It is a device that a person can go into when they are a
certain age and it will subject you body to maganetic fields that will
regress you in age.
   The people of Veuus age like we do but stay looking  like we do at 24 years
old till they get about 75 year old and they then age a little more. At that
time they can go into the Integratron and be regressed back so they look and
feel like they are about 24 again. They are allowed after 75 more years to
do the same thing over. After that length of time they must get special
persmission to go in any more. They then make their transition and incarnate
to a family of their choice.
  The space people showed George VanTassel at Giant Rock Airport in California
how to build one of these things. He tried but never got it to work. A
friend of mine by the  last name of Canning has now bought the place which
is near Landers, Calif. and he takes people on tours of the place.
   Would you want to have the ability to be regressed?
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cleveland
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:34:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Everything is _not_ all right in Cleveland!  For one thing, we've
got brown snow!  (Well, today's heat wave melted that, but we still
have brown air.)
--
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Peterson)
Subject: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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    I like Roswell. It is close to the mountains, beautiful.

    The "facts" as I know them are :

    1) Something crashed outside of Roswell. Witnesses thought
       it was a plane or something.
    2) Next day, Brazel carted stuff and filled up a shed. Called
       the sheriff. Debris is spread out over a big area.
    3) Sheriff and Brazel call Air Force. Local Air Intellegence
       Officer comes out. Base commander then releases a press
       notice : "We have a flying saucer."
    4) General Twining flies down, takes over. Local base
       commander takes a "leave" immediately.
    5) A B-29 is filled up with crates of stuff, flies off to
       another base.
    6) Twining and ATIC guy cook up balloon story. Allow reporters
       in the next day to look at balloon remains.
    7) Brazel is help incognito for three days, won't talk, says that
       "They scared the shit out of me!"
    8) Air Force still refuses to talk about now. Not even mentioned in
       Blue Book as a balloon.

    What can be gleaned from this?

    1) Something crashed. The Air Force doesn't want us all to know.
    2) The Air Force STILL doesn't want us to know. (Almost 50 years
       later).
    3) Many people have come forward to claim having seen "alien" stuff.
    4) Goldwater, etc have been denied access to UFO files.

    It seems that several explanations are possible :

    1) A secret aircraft crashed. I think this is unlikely. It has
       been too long just for a secret plane.
    2) An experiment involving people has gone wrong. Similar to the
       Philadelphia thing. It has recently come to light that the
       military tested soldiers in the gas chamber for toxicity to
       unknown gasses. They still won't recognize soldiers who are now
       having health problems. No records have been kept.
    3) A radioactive device had a problem. Military won't acknowledge
       it since it shows how irresponsible they are. (Typical)
    4) An alien craft crashed.
    5) Some other unknown thing happened.

    The easy explanation: Military thing, top secret, like the gassing.
    The base commander explanation : UFO out of control, crashed.
    My left-field idea: Aliens FAKED the crash to alert stupid nuclear
military that someone is watching. How 'bout it?

--
    Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
    Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci11.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:04:54 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes:

(Much deleted)

>To say that a show is relatively interesting (compared to other TV
>fare) and even to say that it's relatively intelligent (compared to
>other TV fare) is not really saying much.  Stat Trek is *entertaining*.
>It needn't be intellectually sophisticated for that.

>--
>J. Giles

In some ways your comments (see old posting if you want to look at them)
help prove my point.  TV cannot (except some PBS episodes -- by the way, I
recommend The DAy the Universe Changed, a PBS series on science by James
Burke) cover these topics with depth.  But TV can open people's minds to
talk about them.  In the gender show, one could say that the use of another
race (see, the topic aliens comes up here!) is a device to get people
watching to question their views on such issues as homosexuality or sexism.
The nature of the "solution" in this case also left the question open.
Obviously, these shows don't offer teach-ins on the issue.  They START
discussion (as your post and this debate helps prove), and for people who
don't have the inclination to think about these things, they might by use of
drama start opening minds.
    As regards your other post about time.  You too gibly throw off the idea
of thinking about time dimensionally, and the fact that our linear
experience of it may simply be a psychological convention.  The message
there was that linear experience of time in terms of actions may hide the
fact that our existence may transcend linear time.  The fact that the aliens
had to be shown to conduct the interview in an ordered process is an obvious
necessity due to the fact that we live in a dimension where we experience
time linearly.  There is no way humanly possible to show that sort of thing
without adhering to the conventions of our state of existence.  If ideas
about the dimensionality and perhaps unity of time want to be discussed by
more than just a few, drama will have to use those conventions to try to get
people to start thinking beyond what they normally experience.  Open minded
people can do that, and drama can be an emotional aid to logic and reason in
opening those avenues of thought.
     For those doubting the validity of
this post to those topics: for sci.skeptic, talk about time and
dimensionality is definitely appropriate to the subject matter.  For the
other cross posts: talk.religion.newage: thinking of time in this manner
opens up a place for spirit in a manner not thought of before.  For alt.
alien.visitors: such a title is so eclectic that almost anything is postable.
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From: [e-mail] (Bouncing Ball)
Subject: Re: UFO Genius.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:33:22 GMT
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John_-_Winston wrote:
>Subject: UFO Genius.

[Stuff deleted]

>Source of Information: 26-Sun-December 22, 21992.
>JW speaking. What do you think of that?
>John Winston.

John, could you be a little more specific about your source of
information?  This sounds interesting, but you didn't leave much of a
clue as to where people could look this stuff up for themselves.
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:31:30 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
|> [...]
|>   TV has nothing like this.  The closest program is probably
|>   PBS's NOVA, and that's probably no better than high-school
|>   science.  NOVA is constantly interrupting itself to explain
|>   the meaning of some term or concept that I think a well-educated
|>   person should already understand.

I some future age, I'd like to see *one* astronomy documentary
which can discuss the results of spectroscopy without going into
a long description of the electromagnetic spectrum, rainbows, prisms,
and such because the producers of the documentary assume that the
viewers don't know what spectroscopy is.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Appropriate news groups (was: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:52:26 GMT
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All this talk about inappropriate articles is misdirected.  The
internet newsgroups are not classrooms or colloquia.  They more
resemble department common rooms at a large university.  Most of
the people there are undergraduates or graduate students - and
even a few professors - whose interest is in the subject matter
of the department.  The conversations there will probably not
always be about the department's subject - but about matters
of common interest to people who study within that department.

The major problem is not inappropriate subjects (which will die
out if they really aren't of common interest).  The real problem
is cross-posting.  It's rather like connecting several common
rooms together with a PA system - sure, it helps dissiminate
ideas more quickly, but it also decreases the usefulness of
having separate common rooms to begin with.  I think it hurts
more than it helps.  It makes all newsgroups resemble a visit
to the Student Union cafeteria.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:56:42 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes...
>So...you think that the name "Earthlings" sounds sophisticated? NASA
>designates all planets in any system by their star + orbital
>position.ergo...Reticulum3 = third planet from Zeta reticulum...or
>SOL3 = third planet from our sun designated as SOL.

Sez who?

Last I heard, NASA designates this here planet as "Earth", and our star as "the
Sun". There's a couple of techno-weenies on the net who are on one-man crusades
to get us to call the Moon "Luna" and like silliness, but that's about it.

Reticulum is a constellation. By your star + orbital position thing, a
hypothetical 3rd planet from Zeta Reticuli would be Zeta Reticuli 3. Yes,
hypothetical, and yes ReticulI. There's no known planets outside our Solar
System, and you have to use the genitive case of Reticulum.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (chris Loeckel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 4D/life/Venus/etc
Keywords: venus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:15:16 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 39


    According to some posters, there is life on Venus in the "4th
dimension." I think we are getting some terms confused here. The
fourth dimension (irrespective of what Einstein said) is not "time,"
but the fourth PHYSICAL dimension (see Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_), and
theoretically, there could exist an infinite number of physical
dimensions, although there is no evidence to support any physical
dimension beyond the third (I don't know how we WOULD prove extra
dimensions, though, as we exist in only three). I cannot imagine what
the fourth dimension would be like -- I cannot "think in 4 dimensions" --
because I have no experience with the fourth dimension, or I am not
genius enough to do it, or both.
    What I think these posters mean to say is that there is life
on Venus in the "implicate order" (reference to physicist David
Bohm) or "ether," or whatever you want to call it. This "ether" is NOT
a realm of physical matter and is most emphatically not to be confused
with the physical dimensions. The only problem I have (and no small
one, at that) with saying that there is life on Venus in the ether is
that "in" the ether, "time" and "space" do not exist. These concepts have
no meaning. Therefore, if there are beings "in" the ether (and, yes,
there are consciousnesses in the ether), how can they possibly be at a
particular place or in a particular time in the physical universe?
    So, posters, please elighten me. Are these beings "on" Venus
in the same way that you or I may (or may not) be "on" the Earth when
we are out of body -- that is, soaring above the treetops, etc.?
That's the only explanation I can think of right now.
    I can't remember who made the original reference to the 4th
dimension, but I think it may have been John Winston. (Sorry, JW, if
it wasn't you!) Would JLS, EL, JW, SRK, CCS, or any other "Old Soul"
(you know who you are) please share his or her thoughts on this matter with
the readers of this most important news group? Thanks in advance,

    W'geeyih,

    Chris Loeckel
    a.k.a. Nirvana
    a.k.a. Captain Picard
    a.k.a. Commander Sisko
    [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:46:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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While you may be correct in saying that there are no known planets
associated with stars other than the sun, this is true only in that
we have no absolute proof that such planets exist.

This is misleading.  Absolute proof in the form of a space probe or
direct observation of another solar system is quite impossible given
the limitations of modern technology.

There is considerable indirect proof of which you may not be aware.
Epsilon Eridani exhibits a "wobble" in its path through the celestial
sphere which can be easily explained only by the presence of one or
more "companions" with a total mass about six times that of Jupiter.
Barnard's star (one of the closest to us) is thought to have two com-
panions of 0.9 and 0.6 Jupiter masses.

There is also a good deal of other (indirect) evidence in the form of
spectrographic studies, which may be found in many introductory text-
books (at least in summary form).  I would direct you to these for
further information.

One might raise the objection that these companions are too large to be
called planets.  If they are nonluminous and orbiting a star, I don't
know what else you'd call them.  In any case, their existence could
not possibly hurt the chances of smaller planets being present.  I
hope this is useful.
--
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Appropriate news groups (was: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: 21 Jan 93 16:51:18 EST

In article <[e-mail]>,
   [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes:
> All this talk about inappropriate articles is misdirected...
>
> The major problem is not inappropriate subjects (which will die
> out if they really aren't of common interest).  The real problem
> is cross-posting...

I agree!  An original poster can post to each appropriate newgroup instead
of cross-posting, this will in the long run probably generate less bandwidth.

If the original poster does not take this resposibility for themselves, then
each follow-up poster should take out the references to the other newsgroups.
That might be difficult though.  You see I didn't follow my own advice.

--

Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Dean E. Nelson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: UFO Genius.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:49:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Subject: UFO Genius.
>
> (touching story deleted)
>
>JW speaking. What do you think of that?

I've got high hopes
I've got hiiiigh hopes
High in the skyyyy
Apple pie hopes...


Dean Nelson  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Libby Simpson) writes:

>My sentiments exactly!!!!!!!!!! this "brain" has an imagination
>that would best be served by writing fiction and selling it to
>low budget movie monguls.   He wastes valuable network resources
>with all the crap that dreams up every night.  Everytime I see
>a posting from this dude, I avoid reading it, because its always
... etc.
I would suggest, if you really want to see what a true, valuable
network-resources-wasting fucking wanker is like, tune in to
soc.culture.europe, soc.history, soc.culture.greek, and see.

John Winston might be as mad as a meat axe if you please,
or whatever disparaging epithets one may dream up, some of
which may well be true, but he is not a *cunt* (yes, cunt,
I chose the word carefully) like the poster you will find
on the groups mentioned above.

Moreover, some of his postings are interesting, insofar as
they present data, sources not easily obtainable. That the data
may be wrong, biased, fabricated, the sources deluded
does not detract from its value. It is at least interesting
from the anthropological and psychological angle. Did Carl
Jung rave about UFOs being fucking wankers' delusions? No.
He studied the phenomenon without prejudice, bearing
in mind a near certainty that they were delusions.

In that light, John Winston's postings are informative.

And to finish on a less placid tone.

You complainants, what the fuck do you contribute to this
group? Whinge, whinge, whinge, bitch, bitch, bitch. Not
a shred of information. Nothing. Zilch. Bugger all.

So bugger off!

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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Winston human?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 15:48:37 -0600
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Previously [e-mail] wrote:
>Dear Thinkers: Well I hear that the Great Kibo refers to me as being
>human. Thanks very much. That is the nicest thing anyone has called me
>in months.
>John Winston.

The nerve of Kibo!  To say that John Winston is human is an insult to John.
I can not believe that Kibo would stoop to demeaning John like that!

--
Scott Erickson                                         [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stephen F. Schaffner) writes...


Space Rangers is good too... check it out.. it's on Wednesday nights.
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From: [e-mail] (JSB Corp)
Subject: Re: The Integratron.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:03:54 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

(...20 lines del.)

>   Would you want to have the ability to be regressed?
>John Winston.

It is my belief that we do have the ability to be regressed,
and, sure I want it!

Doing extensive pranayama (breathing exercises) like rebirthing
and keeping our emotional bodies clear, and our lives fun and
facinating  is all it takes (in my belief system :-) ) to
keep our our bodies young and healthy.  I have seen people
drop decades as they learn to forgive, and believe "youthing"
to be possible.

Tom Wallace ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carole Fretts) writes...
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe Bob) writes...
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>>
>>>Ask Don about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  _Then_ praise him.
>>
>>
>>Indeed.
>
>Ok, I will.  Don Allen, do you have "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?
>If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy.


Me too... thanks,

Mary
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:54:12 GMT
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Paul Milsom ([e-mail]) wrote:

>     Roswell.

>
> 3) The special metal alloy used was secret. It was very thin, very light, and
> very strong. It was, of course, extremely important that samples of the metal
> didn't get into enemy hands. (Don't ask me what it was!)

> If it weren't for all the witnesses, this would actually be quite a strong
> case. (Don't flame me, I'm just answering Jim's question!)

>                             Cheers,    Paul.

> Paul Milsom
> [e-mail]

If the secret metal alloy was secret 45 years ago, it ought to be commonly
known nowadays, but, to date, I haven't seen or heard of any alloy that can
stand a 10000 degree flame or bend itself back into shape, as well as being able
to be rolled out thinly and be very light and strong. If anyone else knows of
an alloy with those properties, send in details.

--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Dear People: I am glad to hear Mr. Libby's opinion of my efforts
to put down my views and honor his right to express himself.
May the force be with you and all of that sort of stuff.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: "Science Faction" with John Winston   Transcript
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Dear Folks: I didn't asked for Betty to do this but she asked me if
it would be OK and she did it. Thanks very much.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:17:20 -0600
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem) writes:
:
:While you may be correct in saying that there are no known planets
:associated with stars other than the sun, this is true only in that
:we have no absolute proof that such planets exist.
:
:This is misleading.  Absolute proof in the form of a space probe or
:direct observation of another solar system is quite impossible given
:the limitations of modern technology.
:
:There is considerable indirect proof of which you may not be aware.
:Epsilon Eridani exhibits a "wobble" in its path through the celestial
:sphere which can be easily explained only by the presence of one or
:more "companions" with a total mass about six times that of Jupiter.
:Barnard's star (one of the closest to us) is thought to have two com-
:panions of 0.9 and 0.6 Jupiter masses.

Sorry to break in, but if this is that announcement last year that was
in the the news (of course it is because it was first time that it had
ever been used as proof according to all the media sources I read - and
I read a lot as this subject matter interests me), a follow-up article
said they had jumped to conclusions too soon, and I think they said,
after further research, that it may be a binary star instead (although
this part may be wrong).  While the theory of the 'wobble' is very
valid, it has, as of yet, not been enough to make the conclusion that
planets are orbiting other star systems.  The ONLY system so far known to
have planets orbiting it is ours.

I believe there are other planettary systems, the chances against it are
astounding.  I just hope to be around (and I probably will) when they
discover them.  Who knows, since I'm going for degrees in the
astonomical field , I might just locate one?  I can only hope! :-).

:There is also a good deal of other (indirect) evidence in the form of
:spectrographic studies, which may be found in many introductory text-
:books (at least in summary form).  I would direct you to these for
:further information.
:
:One might raise the objection that these companions are too large to be
:called planets.  If they are nonluminous and orbiting a star, I don't
:know what else you'd call them.  In any case, their existence could
:not possibly hurt the chances of smaller planets being present.  I
:hope this is useful.
:--

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

UseNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth

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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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.mil




--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:26:11 GMT
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    [e-mail] (Wayne Smith) writes:
    Concerning this case: with all the apparent debris lying
    around, and all the people who were supposed to have been at
    or near the site, why isn't it that someone kept some of the
    strange material as a keepsake?

... Bill Brazel seems to have been someone who did - what happened
might be instructive:

BB:    I rode out there [the field where the wreckage was found] on
    the average of once a week, and I was riding through that
    area, I was looking.  That's why I found these little
    pieces.  I never did really go looking for anything.  I did't
    figure it was worth it anyway.  But just curiosity, and I'd
    see something that didn't belong there and I'd get off and
    stick it in my chaps pocket.  I might keep it there for a week
    before I'd reach in there.

DS:    Did your father know you were collecting the pieces?

BB:    Oh, yeah.  I showed it to him.  He said, oh, yeah, that's some
    of that thing I found.

DS:    But he didn't tell you to be quiet about it?

BB:    What the hell good is a little old scrap?  A little piece of
    garbage?  I was in Corona in the bar and the pool hall that
    was kind of a meeting place for that little town.  That's
    where everybody got together when they went to town.
    Everybody was asking me...  they'd all seen the papers... and
    they were all asking me about it.  I said I'd picked up a few
    little old bits and pieces and fragments.  Well, what are
    they?  I said, hell, I don't know.  And lo and behold, here
    comes the military.

KR:    In uniform?

BB:    Yeah.  I still am not really sure, but I'm almost positive
    that the officer in charge, his name was Armstrong.  A real
    nice guy.  Now he had a sergeant with him that was real nice.
    And I think there were two other enlisted men.  THey came out
    to the ranch and they were talking to me and they said, we
    understand your father found this weather balloon and I said
    yeah.  And they said we understand that you found some bits
    and pieces of it.  I've got a cigar box that's got a few in
    there.  And this, I think he was a captain as best I can
    remember, said, well, we would like to take it with us.  I
    said, well.  He smiled and said, your father turned the rest
    of it over to us.  You know he's under oath not to tell
    anyone.  I said who knows better than I do.  Well, he said, we
    came after those bits and pieces.  I kind of smiled and I said
    its kind of like when I was in the Navy.  We want volunteers.
    We want you, you, and you.  I said okay, you can have the
    stuff, I have no use for it.

        He said, how well have you examined it? I said well enough to
    know that I don't know what it is.  He said we would rather
    that you wouldn't talk much about it.

KR = Kevin Randl, DS = Don Schmitt, BB = Bill Brazel.  This is
extracted from "UFO Crash at Roswell", pg 130-131.  These events,
according to the book, occurred in the summer of 1949, two *years*
after the main Roswell events.

... so it would seen that somebody in the military was thinking about
souvenir-hunters as well (and pretty thoroughly, to keep at it for 2
years), and taking actions to 'correct' it.  Its clear from what Mr.
Brazel said that he would have been coerced into giving up what he had
found if he had not handed them over.  (Why send up 4 people to do
such a trivial task?)  Curious, yes?

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:01:07 GMT
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    [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
    Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon
    platform or to set an altitude record and something went wrong
    and the crew was killed.  It would be very embarrassing public
    relations-wise if this go out.  This sounds like a plausible
    reason for secrecy.

... not really.  Manned balloons (as opposed to rigid airships) were
used in the years before WWII for research, as part of a joint
USAAC/National Geographic project (Explorer II reached 72,395 feet in
1935, for instance).  Balloon experiments continued after WWII (in
1960, for instance, Captain Joseph Kittinger *jumped* from a balloon
(with a parachute) from 102,800 feet as part of the aptly-named "Man
High" program).  The problem, for your assertion, is that we know
about all this (we also know about 'skyhook', and the CIA's
balloon-reconaissance program.)  (I am also fairly certain that the
balloon program had casualties, but cannot be sure with the references
I have to hand.)

    If the military were going to keep such things secret, would they
not have kept other such embarrasing things secret, like the YB-49
crash in June, 1948 (that killed Frank Edwards and 4 others)?

Charles

Source: Historical Dictionary of the US Air Force, Charles Bright,
ed., Discover Channel documentary, "The Wing will Fly".
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From: [e-mail] (Bomber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: weather
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:16:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS User)
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]
Lines: 9

Out here in the GREAT WHITE NORTH,this datre the temp ia a balmy 8 above
F.. no flood, no storms,,no avalanches,no nothing but great living..
s


---
[e-mail] (Bomber)
The Draco Unix System [BBS]

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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
From: [e-mail] (Mark Hill)
Subject: Re: I'm back.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 21 Jan 93 06:34:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

   Oh no, he forgot to close the quote marks!  That means that everything
   I'm typing here is actually part of what the sign said!  Waah!  I feel
   my copyright to this text slipping away!
                       -- K."
   P.S.  Hi, sillm.

Thank you.

mh
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.sex.masturbation,alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:36:14 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>Title says it all really.

"fucking wanker" is an oxymoron.

                        -- K.
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: I'm back.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 07:28:28 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Hill) writes:
> X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
> +             at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
> +             of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.
>
>Thank you.

How do I know it's really you?
                        -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Anti-Gravity?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Jan 93 18:07:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 31

Hello Robert!

Tuesday January 12 1993, Robert K. Rouse writes to All:

 RKR> From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)

 RKR> Has you ever heard of this effect before?  Is there a patent
 RKR> related to this?

I read about in a book about new technology (Ventla-Verlag).

 RKR>      Recently, Mr. Searl had (1987) a brush with authorities, when
 RKR> he began simply generating his own power for his own house. Now he
 RKR> doesn't have a very large house, but the Utility Board didn't like
 RKR> the fact that they had lost their monopoly. Now he lives in
 RKR> Birmingham under an assumed name. Simple, eh?

What is your source of information? I've a very old source. Did you have the adress of Mr.Searl? I'm very interested for new informations about Searl.

cheers
   Andre

 * Origin:FidoNet-Berlin, the light of the planet (2:2403/10)

$EEN-BY: 107/816 241/6000 270/12 2403/10 16 2405/666
@PATH: 2403/10 2405/666

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 7&^ IVO&^T
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:08:55 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 3

D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE:  7&^ IVO&^T
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:46:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

>Article 12804 in alt.alien.visitors:
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: 7&^ IVO&^T
>Date: 22 Jan 93 12:08:55 GMT
>Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
>Lines: 3
>
>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
>CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
>:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*

OK, Now that we have this cleared up we should move on with the current
thread. Everything is find here in Cleveland.

dano:
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: UFO Genius.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:01:27 GMT


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bouncing Ball) writes:

|>[Stuff deleted]
|>
|>>Source of Information: 26-Sun-December 22, 21992.
|>>JW speaking. What do you think of that?
|>>John Winston.
|>
|>John, could you be a little more specific about your source of
|>information?  This sounds interesting, but you didn't leave much of a
|>clue as to where people could look this stuff up for themselves.
|>

If his sources are not "The Weekly World New" then it is his own dementia.


Steve Food_for_the_Greys
--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:14:54 GMT
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:


>    If the military were going to keep such things secret, would they
>not have kept other such embarrasing things secret, like the YB-49
>crash in June, 1948 (that killed Frank Edwards and 4 others)?

    Uhhhh, I am pretty sure you meant to say GLEN Edwards.  Frank
Edwards wrote books on UFO's......

Duane

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:47:42 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60
Summary: They are Everywhere

Paul Smee writes:
>based on ancestry.  The fact of the matter is that there are few, if
>any people in the world who can claim to be descended from the original
>inhabitants of wherever they live.

>To take NI as an example -- we have the 'Irish' Irish ....
>a mere few hundred years ago.  However, most of these 'Irish' Irish are
>Gaels -- they didn't originate in Ireland, but rather invaded Ireland
>from Scotland, taking over from the Picts, about 1000-1500 years ago.

Sheesh -- You'd think people who'd like to wade in here with an
argument would crack a book once in a while.  I mean, everybody
who is anybody in this here debate knows full well that the
"Gaels" are the descendents of Space Aliens, as Whitley
Strieber proved.  Do your homework, pal!

>So, by the same arguments they use, they don't belong there either, and
>ought to move back to Scotland where they belong.

>I'm not sure who they took over from.  (The reason you don't hear much
>about them is that they were completely wiped out by the Gaels.  I
>suppose there may be a lesson in this, but it's not a very pleasant

I'll bet those Picts were space aliens too.  Considering their
legendary clothing style they just couldn't have been human.

>This is NOT an attempt to justify the British handling of NI.  Rather,

Heck, no.

>even further.  All you end up with is more Bosnias.  Someone is going
>to have to make the breakthrough of figuring out a different way of
>looking at these problems.  ('Whoever holds it now gets it', which is

How about, "convert everyone to Islam".
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Scott A. Steinbrink)
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:51:46 GMT
Lines: 14

[e-mail] writes:

>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
>CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
>:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*

omeone trnslate this.,  please?

--
Scott Allen Steinbrink

NetCom: [e-mail]
America Online: Derichman
Bitnet: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: UFO Genius.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:52:55 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffrey L. Cook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Bouncing Ball) says:

>John_-_Winston wrote:
>>Source of Information: 26-Sun-December 22, 21992.
                                             ^^^^^
>>JW speaking. What do you think of that?
>>John Winston.
>
>John, could you be a little more specific about your source of
>information?  This sounds interesting, but you didn't leave much of a
>clue as to where people could look this stuff up for themselves.

It won't do you any good trying to look it up.  It won't be published
for another twenty thousand years!  ;-)
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Brandt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: HAYES ULTRA 144 FOR SALE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:06:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Datamax/Satalink Connection * Ivyland, PA [phone]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ron Brandt)
Lines: 28


       Hayes External Ultra Smartmodem 14400 with V.32 bis for sale.
       -------------------------------------------------------------

  Like New in original box with all manuals. Less than a year old.
  Has 1.5 years left on original warranty.

  38,400 bps V-Series Smartmodem features:
  ----------------------------------------
  Does 1650+ CPS on Compressed ZIP files
  14,400, 12,000 and 7,200 Bps (CCIT V.32bis)
   9,600 and 4,800 Bps (CCIT V.32)
   9,600 and 4,800 Bps (Express 96)
   2,400 bps (CCIT V.22bis)
   1,200 bps (CCIT V.22 & 212A)
   75/100 bps (CCIT V.23)
   Full CCIT V.42 and V.42bis compliant
   Dial up and leased line support.
   X.25 Pad Support (w/ ISDN Support)
   MNP 2-5 Error Control and Data Compression
   Recently upgraded to v1.2 ROMS. (12/92)

   $450.00 with FREE BLUE (2nd Day Air) shipping.
   We accept VISA/MASTERCARD with no surcharges.

   For more information call:
   Call 215-674-9290 x1110 during business hours or leave E-Mail

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From: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Jan 93 18:30:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Organization: Almac BBS Ltd. [phone]
Lines: 20


You, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writ

PN/*   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
PN/*   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
PN/*   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
PN/*   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.

HA! 17 million Britons tune in to Cilla Black's _Blind Date_ every
week. This is telling them they're shit-thick morons - and they love
it. Nah, your theory is leaking.

(Hang on, this is rec.couch.potato, right? What have you done with
John Winston's alt.alien.visitors? It's was here yesterday....)

 Andy ~ london ~ uk                        [e-mail]
                                           [e-mail]
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #112 . Organism (n): Discrimination on the basis of organs.

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Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:50:31 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
>CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
>:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*
I wholeheartedely agree!
Ethan Haslett
P.S. ^%O@#5 ^L83M%
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:10:25 GMT
Lines: 122

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Bill Peterson):
>     I like Roswell. It is close to the mountains, beautiful.
>
>     The "facts" as I know them are :
>
>     1) Something crashed outside of Roswell. Witnesses thought
>        it was a plane or something.

           Hmmmm. Sounds like it might have been a plane. (surprise)

>     2) Next day, Brazel carted stuff and filled up a shed. Called
>        the sheriff. Debris is spread out over a big area.

           Ok. One day has passed. If this was a USAF secret prototype
           crash, where are the AF types? Why aren't they here yet?

>     3) Sheriff and Brazel call Air Force. Local Air Intellegence
>        Officer comes out. Base commander then releases a press
>        notice : "We have a flying saucer."

           He cleverly remembers to put his brandy flask under the desk
           before issuing a statement.... (conjecture)

>     4) General Twining flies down, takes over. Local base
>        commander takes a "leave" immediately.

           If the USAF had known about this, they would have had the big
           guns there on the spot before Brazel could lay a finger on it.

>     5) A B-29 is filled up with crates of stuff, flies off to
>        another base.

           Definitely strong indicator that whatever it was, it was
           *important*.

>     6) Twining and ATIC guy cook up balloon story. Allow reporters
>        in the next day to look at balloon remains.

           Could easily be partly true. Could easily be entirely false.
           Probably is not wise to read anything into this one.

>     7) Brazel is help incognito for three days, won't talk, says that
>        "They scared the shit out of me!"

           Yup. If I were a base commander, and was shown the wreckage of
           a Soviet Spy plane or something, and thought I would be smart
           and cover it up by shouting UFO, my superior officer would
           probably chew me up and spit me out.

>     8) Air Force still refuses to talk about now. Not even mentioned in
>        Blue Book as a balloon.

           Well, it may not be that the *item* in particular was a secret,
           but that it's presence at that location and time may have
           implications that would be *severely* detrimental to somebody's
           reputation. (i.e. Soviet spy plane breaches all US security...)

>
>     What can be gleaned from this?
>
>     1) Something crashed. The Air Force doesn't want us all to know.

           Yes.

>     2) The Air Force STILL doesn't want us to know. (Almost 50 years
>        later).

           Yes.

>     3) Many people have come forward to claim having seen "alien" stuff.

           This is not unusual in any circumstance and cannot be interpreted
           as anything approaching evidence.

>     4) Goldwater, etc have been denied access to UFO files.

           He has been denied access to lots of stuff.

>
>     It seems that several explanations are possible :
>
>     1) A secret aircraft crashed. I think this is unlikely. It has
>        been too long just for a secret plane.

           There may be many reasons why they don't want the story out.
           Case histories for other secret planes don't establish a
           precedent. I think this is by far the most likely explanation.

>     2) An experiment involving people has gone wrong. Similar to the
>        Philadelphia thing. It has recently come to light that the
>        military tested soldiers in the gas chamber for toxicity to
>        unknown gasses. They still won't recognize soldiers who are now
>        having health problems. No records have been kept.

           Also possible, as that would be something for them to cover up.

>     3) A radioactive device had a problem. Military won't acknowledge
>        it since it shows how irresponsible they are. (Typical)

           Really is a varation on 2).

>     4) An alien craft crashed.

           Nothing to indicate this, really. Just a few short-lived
           testimonials from people who may not really have been in
           any position to know, or had the intelligence to assess that.

>     5) Some other unknown thing happened.
>
>     The easy explanation: Military thing, top secret, like the gassing.
>     The base commander explanation : UFO out of control, crashed.
>     My left-field idea: Aliens FAKED the crash to alert stupid nuclear
> military that someone is watching. How 'bout it?
>
> --
>     Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
>     Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X

   Just my .02

   Cheers!
-Max
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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Northeast Ohio CE5 Working Group
Date: 22 Jan 1993 19:09:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu

***********************************************************************
                 NORTHEAST OHIO CE5 WORKING GROUP
***********************************************************************

Description

The Northeast Ohio CE5 Working Group is an organization that
experiments with attempts at Close Encounters of the 5th kind.  A CE5
is an encounter with extraterrestrial spacecraft or beings that is
human initiated.  CE5 groups utilize techniques such as Coherent
Thought Sequencing, playback of special sound recordings, and powerful
beams of light to attract spacecraft to an area.  This is opposed to
standard UFO investigational techniques, which usually concentrate on
collecting information after an event has occurred.

Past CE5 Successes

The Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI) is a
CE5 group led by Dr. Steven Greer that has been successful in
attracting and videotaping spacecraft, especially when the attempts
have been made in known UFO wave areas.  One such success occurred in
Gulf Breeze, Florida in March 1992.  Thirty three participants viewed
the event, in which 3 spacecraft appeared to the group and  responded
to signals sent with high powered lights.  There have also been less
publicized CE5's that have occurred in Ohio.

Northeast Ohio Activities

Upcoming meetings of the Northeast Ohio CE5 Working Group will focus on
learning and practicing CE5 techniques, as well as reviewing the
experiences of existing CE5 groups.  The group will then go "out into
the field" on a regular basis and utilize their training in an attempt
to engage actual extraterrestrial craft.

Call for Participation

If you are interested in participating in this activity, and live in
the Northeast Ohio area,  please reply by email.  Comments from people
outside the area are also welcomed.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!pagesat!netsys!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a7975
From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:24:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 13

How dare you call ST:TNG and DS9 Lowbrow!

You quasi-intellectuals piss me off.

The greatest contribution to society you have ever made is probably the
message that I am replying too.  IF *you* don't watch TV then refrain from
commenting on the above topic.

I also find it quite rewarding that The Simpsons contributed to your decision
to nix TV.  You really must have a good sense of humour, a regular Jerry
Steinfeld! (or do you know who he is?)

Pissed off in B.C.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:30:44 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 5

Only an idiot would dare ask Kibo a trite question like that.

Just who do you think you are anyway?

I mean really.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Dr. Who)
Subject: looking for people who have had some sort of close encounter experienc
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: next11csc.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:52:21 GMT
Lines: 6

I live in the greater Washington D.C. metropolitan area and I especially
want to contact people in my area who have had CE experiences.


                    Thanks,
                    Nathan
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From: [e-mail] (Susan Tees)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the universe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:54:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 2

Squeaky clean.  Nothing is better than bbs'ing, and I am new
on deck to.
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From: [e-mail] (Susan Tees)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ferengi..\Yeah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:56:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 3

What is all this about Deep Space Nine?  I am astounded that you
all watched that drawn-out show.  I guess I did too.  But I think
I was drunk, so that makes it okay...
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (John Riley)
Subject: What's the fuss?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuSci, Inc
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:53:40 GMT
Lines: 7

Does anyone have a sense for the probability of another sentient species
traveling here?  My intuition is that the chances are *extremely* low.
Also, havya ever wondered why so many idiots, present company excepted of
course, are preoccupied with the subjek?

jjr

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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help find adress.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:28:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: kin.csc.liv.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

JOHN-ARILD STRM ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Can someone find me the adresses to High-Schools in Kentucky. My sister goes
> to school at one of them and I like to talk to her. I can use Email, netnews
> and telnet.

--Have you tried using Gopher?
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: How do I kill a file?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:32:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: kin.csc.liv.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]



--I think someone has asked this already, but I'll ask anyway. Is it possible
to have a kill file on a UNIX so that I don't have to read any of John Winston's,
Jack Sarfatti's and Peter Nelson's bollocks?

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 4D/life/Venus/etc
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 18:09:44 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear People: It was me that mentioned the 4th dimension. I'll try to
look around and see if I can find some information on the subject.
I do remember the story about the catapillar that looked up at the
beautiful butterfly and said, "Boy you'll never catch me up in one
of those things.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13678 alt.alien.visitors:12837 alt.religion.kibology:5944
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:42:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Teacher, teacher I go declair, I believe Tom is teling
us a bit of truth.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13679 alt.alien.visitors:12838 sci.skeptic:37282
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:45:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 5

Dear People: Someone asked for more information about becoming a Genius
by being worked on by the people in the UFOs. That's all the information
that has come my way at the present time. If I get more information
I'll try to pass it on to you.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13680 alt.alien.visitors:12839 sci.skeptic:37284
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:16:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27

Subject: How To Become A Para Normal Investigator.
  Someone has asked me how to become a paranormal inverstgator. Let's first
define the term. It means a person who checks out things that are out of the
ordinary or weird.
  A good example of a person who does this is Brad Steiger and his wife Sherry
Hansen Steiger.  I met Brad at a UFO convention that I was documenting
summer before last in Phoenix, Ariz.  I had already read many of his books
like Star Seed and others.
  He not afraid of checking out about anything including UFOs, Trolls,
Fairies, Elves and things even more bazar than that.
  To become a good investigator you first must have an open mind and be ready
to dive into  any investigation with great vigor. The first bit of good
advice came from a good friend of mine by the name of Sister Thedra. I asked
her advice as to what I should do many year ago when I first started in all
of this and she said, "John now that you getting started in this my advice
would be for you NOT TO DESIRE PHENOMENA BUT ONLY DESIRE TRUTH."  By this
she meant to not go around looking for a lot of ghosts and spirits because
they will usually just lead you around because they want someone to listen
to them.
   Next you should attempt to learn how to contact your higher self so that
you will be led in what you are doing. You then should examine you motives
and ask that you will be led to do the right thing and be defeated in doing
anything that will not be to your higher good.
  There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
continue to sweep them under the rug. One of them is spontaneous human
combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13681 alt.alien.visitors:12840
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Messages From UFOs.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:57:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 47

Subject: Messages From UFOs.
  Many people, including myself, read quite a bit of information that comes
from the space people. A person by the name of Dr. R, Leo Sprinkle  does a
lot of writing about UFOs and here are some of his thoughts.....Friendly
space aliens are using people as messengers to communicate with mankind and
help guide us to a happy future, excited experts say.
 In fact, in throughly documented cases, 12 people have been videotaped
relaying messages from extraterrestrials.
  "We are finding humans being used to transmit messages from space aliens,"
declared Dr. R. Leo Sprinkle, a prominent expert in the field of UFO
phenomenon.
  Both Dr. Sprinkle, and Jiles Hamilton, a world famous hypnotist, have
encountered eerie cases of aliens whose voices emerged from people under
hypnosis.
 Hamilton, who has videotaped 12 "messengers" in action, said his first
contact was made in 1978.
  "I hypnotized a woman who's famous for having been abducted twice by UFOs,"
he said.
  "During the session she began to speak in a different voice. I realized it
was  an alien. It told me, "We will lead you to our contacts on Earth."
  "Two days later a 40-year-old woman came in for hypnosis to help her pass an
exam. While under hypnosis, her facial expression changed and she spoke with
a gruff man's voice."
  "The alien, called Wolco, said his people progressed far beyond us to the
point where they have no emotions-but he feels they lost something as a
result."
  Another  "messenger" was a tall, middle-aged steelworker.
  "He was an easygoing guy, but under hypnosis his voice changed to an almost
impudent tone. The alien, who identified himself as Andrew, was opinionated
and sarcastic. He told me, "You earthlings are on the verge of destroying
yourselves.  My superiors think they can help, but I don't know."
  "Andrew went on to tell me that many people lost in the Bermuda Triangle
were picked up by his people and taken to their Planet."
  Dr. Sprinkkle noted the case of an Oregon grandmother. "When she's in a
trance, this fellow Hweig speaks through her," he said.  Her voice changes.
Hweig says that UFO activity has two purposes - one to rejuvenate the Earth
and the other to assist humankind in its evolutionary development.
  "The overriding theme of all these cases is that the aliens are trying to
get friendly messages across."
  Hamilton agreed, "They want us to know they're interested in our welfare.
They are most concerned with our materialistic attitudes, greed, jealousy
and hate.
  "They say our planet has a short fuse for destruction unless we do an
about-face.
Source of Information: Weekly World News January 19, 1993.
JW It seems like the space people are trying to tell us something.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Dang it: well I'm back from vacation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 93 04:08:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 8


Dear Ones of this dimension: well i'm back, but i still can't post.
how did i post this. my space friends posted it for me from a ship
orbiting just over Mt shasta.
btw, i spilt some milk on the floor, gosh now i have to wipe it up.
be seeing you real soon.

me speaking now- bye
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:12842 alt.religion.kibology:5947
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:25:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.ufo.fienrds
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: All is well in California.

Mary said yous guys better get out og there! if you think
she's kidding, watch the whether repofts.
p.s. i have friends obriting over mt shasta that are ready to
evaummate everyome up if they went.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!zikzak.apana.org.au!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Date: 23 Jan 1993 03:58:37 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner) says:
>
>Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
>these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
>circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
>had enough proof otherwise)?
>
>Just asking.....

I posted an article here about this not long ago, so I won't go into too much detail as I hate typing.
Anyway one majour difference between the unexplained circles and the hoaxed ones, is that the
hoaxed circles made by those two {their names escape me at the moment} had straw which was
broken at the base due to their bending. Whereas the unexplained circles had straw which was
bent in a nicely curved radius {no brakes}.

Cheers
Peter T.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T  (&#(*&J&*#$@% ;-)! )
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Wayne State University, Detroit MI  U.S.A.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:22:48 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:

>
>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE

[...H.@!H% #^#FD%D%S^$#...]
*#@HF*( HC!)*#%&F_#%*#&V C)#*%()#@(%* ;-) ;-) ;-)

>CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ C)(NC()^#%(^#@)N#B!!!! :(


>:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*

R0TFL!! ^T%G*GD&D&GHCH QD^S&@#$#@&YDHU$*&
*&#HFEH*D  DHV*(YD*HD*H!!! :-P


Newbie!

--Eric

[e-mail]  "I(*#@&$& #$*  # FN%#$^D ^#%$E
Detroit, Michigan  USA     JHD()#*HF*F    HFD&*#$^*&FD(&"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13682 alt.alien.visitors:12845 alt.religion.kibology:5949
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: I'm back.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:36:08 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.hoops.jersey
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> >Dear Everbody: I just got back on the Net. It's sort of like the sign
> >they had out in front of the psychic's convention that said, "Cancelled
> >due to unforseen difficulties. I'll catch up with you people later.
> >John Winston.
>
> Oh no, he forgot to close the quote marks!  That means that everything
> I'm typing here is actually part of what the sign said!  Waah!  I feel
> my copyright to this text slipping away!
>
Thanks alot. the law of quotes stipulates that you must end the
starting quote with an ending quote without skipping a line.
notice how you skipped a line and placed the end quote on your
K sig. as i was reading, i got trapped in between the quotes
and was forced to write this. please be careful out there.
now your K should catch me 'cause i'm not going to leave a blank
line-
>                     -- K."
>
> P.S.  Hi, sillm.
>


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Smoking
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:46:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.second.rat.smoke
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: I agree with Jean that too much smoking of Ziggurates is
> bad for you.

"not only that but 2nd hand smoke too. these scientists of the
government put these rats in a clear plastic box and blew smoke
in there all the time. the rats died in every experiment, so they
released their report to the press of the dangers of exposuref to
2nd hand smoke. i don't know what this has to do with aliens but
i heard the aliens got the americans hooked on tobacco.

                                                    "
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: John Winston club
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:54:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: support
Lines: 9


i don't know about you guys but i look up to John even though
I rib him sometimes. he has expanded my mind in some ways?
what;s the difference, you say plate-ians i say setorn-ians
but they all grow from the same group of vegetable-matter.

btw, anyone catch the latest Telly Savalis video where he captures
space alien channelers on film while they are channeling. Very
interrestink, but schtupit.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:24:59 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott A. Steinbrink) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> >D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
> >CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
> >:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*
>
> omeone trnslate this.,  please?
>
i'll give it a crack. it's an ancient zaemphian greeting.

if you bracket[>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&]
this means hello, but it can mean butterbread too, but that wouldn't
make much sense in this context.

this says
[$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RECI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)]
we are planning a visit soon, or it could mean corn grits corn grits,
but the same applies in the context.

here we have
[:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*]
is gas still 20 cents per gallon, over.
or an alternate meaning is gutterbum gutterbum, apply context as same.

hope this helps.


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!unislc!ach
From: [e-mail] (Andy Hutton)
Subject: Is Strieber still around?
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:34:07 GMT
Lines: 28

Has anyone heard from W. Strieber lately?  The last thing I'd seen from him
he apparently thumbed his nose at the whole UFO community and retired.  Even
though he was still claiming some high-level contacts with his 'visitors'.

Cryptically, he stated he would still be willing to correspond with those
who had written him previously.  Maybe he finally experienced the *BIG* ab-
duction!  It would be nice if he would stay in touch with the rest of us.

One thing we should try to keep is an open mind (and strict honesty) when
dealing with a subject as complex as UFO's.  The dividing line between
objective reality and perception is very fuzzy in unusual situations like
those reported by Strieber.  Were his experiences actually UFO related?  Or
maybe that was merely the spin he was forced to apply to allow some rational
interpretation of what happened to him.  I do not subscribe to the claim that
he was a bald faced liar or that he was crazy.  I know many would say
that money was his motivation, but why would he pick such a farfetched subject
and swear he was telling the truth?   He couldn't have known that COMMUNION was
going to be a bestseller when he wrote it.  Instead I feel that what he wrote
was a desperate attempt to relate to the rest of the world something that was
impossible for him to keep to himself.

In any case, it would seem that given the intensity of his convictions I don't
think he has dropped out as completely as he would have us believe ...


FRANK B.


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From: [e-mail] (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Watchers --- BOOK!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 03:22:31 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Lines: 5

I'm reading a book called "The Watchers - The Secret Design Behind UFO
Abduction", by Raymond E. Fowler.  I would like to know peoples views on
this book.  I'm on chapter 9, and it is EXTREMELY fascinating!

Titan
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Bob)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: a gora
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:29:54 GMT
Lines: 4



  Crop circles are fake.

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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Moon surface: No ETs
Date: 25 Jan 1993 14:49:16 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 6
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

After watching the NASA tapes on the apollo missions to the moon there is
one thing that really stands out. The surface of the moon has very little
erosion and the impact craters are billions of years old. The tracks left
by the astronauts will be there for millions of years and yet they did not
see any evidents of other tracks. This can lead to the conculsion that any
ETs skipped over the moon or any landing marks have not been found.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13700 alt.alien.visitors:12901 sci.skeptic:37351
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Redd -- MP-6 Operations)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear People: Someone asked for more information about becoming a Genius
>by being worked on by the people in the UFOs. That's all the information
>that has come my way at the present time. If I get more information
>I'll try to pass it on to you.
>John Winston.

John, I've been away since December 3rd, and you just can't imagine how
happy I am that you're still posting to the net.  1993 is saved for me
already!

Dale

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the universe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 07:48:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Welcome To One And All: I believe you will find that this group
of people covers the whole spectrum of different kinds of people
So enjoy yourself.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 07:59:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Everybody:  I am listening to all of your comments. Thanks to
Andrew for his good words, and I believe Press2 may win some sort of
award for his come-backs to my postings.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 4D/life/Venus/etc
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 08:10:56 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear People: I still haven't come up with any information on the 4th
dimension but I am impressed that you (Chris) are aware of what an
old soul is. Many people meet my wife and after being around her for
a while realize that she is an old soul. As far as the 4th dimension
is concerned it appears that the human body consists of about 5 or
more different bodies. When we get rid of our ego then we can go into
the 4th dimension. Some people are already talking about going into
the 5th dimension now. At least that is what the Sasquatch are trying
to tell us now, but most people don't believe Sasquatch anyway.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What's the fuss?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 08:20:26 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I'm not for sure that I understand the question properly.
Maybe you can restate it in another way. Rod seems to think I should
attempt to answer your question.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dang it: well I'm back from vacation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 08:28:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Earth People: Well I think there is now a clone of me running
around and it's Mr. Press2.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Subject: Re: Mom and Bigfoot.
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:19:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 15

John (Enquiring minds want to know) Winston if I wanted to read the Enquirer,
The World, The Star or any other magazine that publishes things like Madonnas
breasts found on Mars I would go grocery shopping like everyone else and
stand in a long lineup and hope the little old ladies in front of me were
paying by cheque!


--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^
"Who is it Dear?  Oh it's a quaint little man from the village...something
about the reaping." Don't fear the Reaper, fear your government. Question
Authority before Authority questions you!  Have a nice day!
                           [e-mail]
*******************************************************
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 09:43:20 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 75

1>+F
!Subject: UFO Fix.
  Are you not feeling well? Do you have the jake-leg, hammer toes or piles?
Well then all you have to do is go and jump on a flying saucer and they will
fix you up good.
   Now let me tell you a story about a guy that really got fixed up by the
space people......An injured hunter thought he was stuck when he stumbled
into a rocky ravine, but his life was saved by UFO doctores who whisked  him
up into their space ship - and performed hip replacement surgery on him!
  Tough-talking Texan Randy  Meyers says the best part of his bizarre
encounter is the free surgery.
  "I've had a bad hip my whole life, but now I can walk, run and even dance
without any pain at all," says the 47-year-old loner.
  "I probubly would have died out there in the woods if that UFO hadn't come
along when it did. Yes I was scared."
   "But those guys took good care of me. I never felt a thing even when they
were opening up my skin and polking around inside me."
  Randy's accident occurred near Alpine, Texas. the fall left him crippled for
several hours until the UFO showed up and beameed him inside.
  Randy says his rescuers all looked exactly alike. Each had a big round head
and not a single stand of hair.
  Their smooth flesh had a bluish tint to it. And they each stood about an
even five feet tall.
  Randy says his bigheaded hosts sprayed him with a misty substance that left
him feeling totally numb.
 He then watched with a mixture of curiousity and fear as they used a
laser-like light to slit open his upper right leg.
  "They were talking in this funny kind of voice - sort of an electronic
sounding, high-pitched squeal," says Randy. "They had me propped up so I
could see them removing my thigh bone."
  "I was afraid they were going to lop off my leg and leave me that way, but
then one of the creatures came up with a shiny metal replacement in his
hands.
  "They slipped it right inside me, then waved a few devices over my hip and
the whole thing healed up perfectly.  It was the most amazing thing I've
ever seen."
  The alien surgeons then lifted Randy up onto his feet and forced him to
walk.  The worried woodsman took a tenative step and was stunned when he
felt no pain.
  In fact, he was surprised to find that all the cuts and bruises he suffered
in the fall had miraculously healed. "I don't know how they did it, but
those guys fixed me up properly and then deposited me back down on the
ground - right next to my car," says Randy.  "I'd been trudging through the
woods looking of that car for over half a day before I fell.
  "I never told the aliens where it was.  They just seemed to know. Come to
think of it. I didn't say a word the whole time I was in that UFO.
  "Yet, the aliens seemed to know what I was thinking. And I pretty much
understood them even though they didn't speak English."
  X-rays clearly show there is a metallic hip replacement inside Randy. But
there is no surgical scar to show how it got there! Doctors want to perform
further tests on Randy and maybe even open him up to inspect the hip
handiwork. But Randy wants no part of earth-bound medicine ever again.
 "Those aliens are light years ahead of us in technique," he says.  "I feel
better than I ever have and I'm not about to let doctors here work on me and
screw things up. I'm glad they found me as I'm sure I would've died without
their help."
Source of Information: January 5, 1993-SUN-page 23.
JW. So there you  have it folks. Would a Texan lie?
John Winston.



hen he stumbled into a rocky ravine, but his life was saveFwF

BAmTWKP
^N/O3    ,.T

T
G
|
1@BDFHN/O
3    ,.T

0Roman 10cpi UFO hadn't come along when it did. Yes I was scared."
   "But those guys took good care of me. I never felt
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My researches with UFOs and Diamagnetism
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:15:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes...
>OK now... the book that really gave me a big clue as to how they might work
>is an old 1970 book entitled 'Diamagnetism and UFOs', by some professor
>Burt.  In short he proposed a new theory to account for the behaviour of
>electrons and protons with regards to diamagnetism...................
>        - Richard Temps
>          [e-mail]

Given that all the above handwaving actually works, how did they get here?
There's no mass out in space to be repulsed by the alleged force.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 JAN 93 12:27:09
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Saleeba) writes...
>[e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:
>>    1) Something crashed. The Air Force doesn't want us all to know.
>>    2) The Air Force STILL doesn't want us to know. (Almost 50 years
>>       later).
>
>You see this sort of thing again and again, particularly in
>alt.alien.visitors - wild claims that the government or some part of
>it is trying to cover up information about UFOs. Now there's something
>about all this that doesn't ring true for me at all. WHY? I mean,
>what's the point? What do they stand to gain by covering it all up? It
>must cost them a lot of effort, so they'd have to have a pretty darn
>good reason to do it.

-Begin included text-
From an article about Barry Goldwater, published in The New Yorker
magazine, April 25, 1988.  Goldwater is quoted:

    I used to receive a hundred calls a year from people who
    wanted me to get into the Green Room at Wright-Patterson
    Air Force Base, because that's where the Air Force stored
    all the material on UFOs. I once asked General Curtis
    LeMay if I could get into that room, and he just gave
    me holy hell. He said, "Not only can't you get into it
    but don't you ever mention it to me again." Now, with
    millions of planets that we know are up there, it's hard
    for me to believe that ours is the only goddamn one that
    has things that can think walking around on it. So when
    people tell me they've seen UFOs, I don't say they haven't.
    In fifteen thousand hours of flying, I've never seen one,
    but I've talked to pilots who have. I talked to an airline
    crew that swore up and down that an object came along
    side of them one night, and before they could do anything
    it vanished. We lost a military pilot who went up to
    intercept strange lights and never came back. His airplane
    disappeared, too. I won't argue for or against.

Goldwater was both chairman of the Senate Armed Services
Committee and a general in the Air Force Reserve.
-End included text-

It might be interesting for someone to publicly claim they've been to Roswell
recently, and found a piece of the wreckage. Just to see if the military is
still interested.

As far as "why are they covering up what they know?", who knows? They have
their reasons I'm sure, but our speculation is worthless.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: probes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:22:48 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Lines: 22


    The biggest argument used against UFO's and aliens is that
we are so far from any other planets. We cannot even see other
planets for sure. Of course, we think that all main sequence stars
should have planets. But no proof.

    What if we lived closer to the center of our galaxy? There
would be many stars within a light-year or so. With our current
technology, I'll bet we could see proof of other planets all around.
What is the first thing we do when investigating other bodies? (Planets
I mean :) We send a probe. If we lived amidst many other planets, we
might even detect atmospheres. Any oxygen planet would be of special
interest.
    Perhaps the vast majority of UFO sightings are due to unmanned
probes sent out long ago. Any probe finding an oxygen planet (therefore
life as we know it) would send back data. Eventually someone might
come see, probably a stuffy old anthropologist or something. That
explains why we haven't seen them yet. They're shy.

--
    Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
    Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13703 alt.alien.visitors:12912 sci.skeptic:37355
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:09:49 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> (talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic), [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>>
>> >   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>> >   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>> >   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>> >   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>> >   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>> >   fiction!
>>
>If Peter didn't mention the Bible, I would have thought that he was a victim
>of Ayn Rand. The Simpsons comment is what got me really wondering. I personally
>think that the Simpsons is one of the best shows on television. Things such
>as mob behavior and the hypocrisy of most of society's inhabitants are constant
>sources of material in the show.

  Yes I agree they (and ST:NG) are *inspired* by important themes --
  nobody could deny that.  My complaint is that they don't do anything
  with these ideas that isn't obvious, simple, and comprehensible to
  a mass audience who doesn't want to spend any time thinking about
  "hard" subjects.

> The show could easily be called "Young Friedrich Nietzsche in Late
> Twentieth Century Suburbia."

  I would say it's a comic-book or Weekly-Reader treatment of these
  topics.  To me there's no complexity or depth to their treatment
  of these things; everything is laid out in graphic simplicity.

>There is so much depth and texture to the show you truly get out of it
> what you put in in terms of the effort you exert in watching it.

  I think what's happening is that you're getting out of it MORE
  than what the writers originally put in.  The "meaning" of the
  content is coming from inside your, kind of like a video Rorshach
  (sp?) test.


---peter

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!morale
From: [e-mail] (Enrique Morales)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <k5n3w=@rpi.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: jec306.its.rpi.edu
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:11:32 GMT
Lines: 20

[e-mail] (Scott Leaf) writes:

>How dare you call ST:TNG and DS9 Lowbrow!

>You quasi-intellectuals piss me off.

>The greatest contribution to society you have ever made is probably the
>message that I am replying too.  IF *you* don't watch TV then refrain from
>commenting on the above topic.

>I also find it quite rewarding that The Simpsons contributed to your decision
>to nix TV.  You really must have a good sense of humour, a regular Jerry
>Steinfeld! (or do you know who he is?)

>Pissed off in B.C.

You tell him!!!

Cheering from N.Y.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 33
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:16:33 GMT

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>>I posted an article here about this not long ago, so I won't go into
>>too much detail as I hate typing.  Anyway one majour difference
>>between the unexplained circles and the hoaxed ones, is that the
>>hoaxed circles made by those two {their names escape me at the moment
>>had straw which was broken at the base due to their bending. Whereas
>>the unexplained circles had straw which was bent in a nicely curved
>>radius {no brakes}.
>
>>Cheers
>>Peter T.
>
> A crop circle researcher (I can't remember his name-- he has posted a
> few reports of his investigations to this newsgroup) mentioned that,
> by simply walikng around in a circle, he and a colleague were able to
> reproduce a typical simple crop formation.  The trampled stalks were
> *not* broken, just bent.  So apparently, some plants break when
> trampled, and some just bend.  So would everybody *please* stop
> insisting that unbroken stalks are unnatural?  We have enough trouble
> sorting through the facts as it is without these distracting little
> falsehoods about details.
>
> --E.V.L. ([e-mail])  # "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you see
> a.k.a.:  The Eternal Newbie,  # before you a killer, and of the worst kind.
> The Amazing Tubeman!,         # Madonna."
> Murphy's Law Incarnate        # --Commercial for the movie "Body of Evidence"
> Any similarities between what I say and what I mean are purely coincidental.


Never mind kibo....who is Winston?


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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:05:29 GMT
Lines: 6




When I was in Peru, I heard same kind of stories. F.e. humanoids took
a boy in their ufo and fixed his broken arm in few minits.
O.Pajula.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:11:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: polisci.serb.358
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>  I think what's happening is that you're getting out of it MORE
>  than what the writers originally put in.  The "meaning" of the
>  content is coming from inside your, kind of like a video Rorshach
>  (sp?) test.

But isn't there value in that?  Doesn't the writing have to be somewhat
inspired in order to motivate the kinds of discussions and ideas people have
when they see these shows?  I'm a big theater fan, and I find that
"simplistic" plays seem sometimes to be the most interesting because they
rely on the intelligence/thoughtfulness of the spectator to make them
complete.  I don't think anyone says that drama can REPLACE scientific and
philosophical analyses, but it can sometimes take abstract views and put
them in a daily life situation.  I agree it's up to us to react and
participate intelligently; many ST:NG and Simpsons viewers probably don't do
that.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:50:54 GMT
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>In article <[e-mail]> (talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic), [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>>>
>>> >   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>>> >   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>>> >   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>>> >   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>>> >   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>>> >   fiction!
>>>
>>If Peter didn't mention the Bible, I would have thought that he was a victim
>>of Ayn Rand. The Simpsons comment is what got me really wondering. I personally
>>think that the Simpsons is one of the best shows on television. Things such
>>as mob behavior and the hypocrisy of most of society's inhabitants are constant
>>sources of material in the show.
>
>  Yes I agree they (and ST:NG) are *inspired* by important themes --
>  nobody could deny that.  My complaint is that they don't do anything
>  with these ideas that isn't obvious, simple, and comprehensible to
>  a mass audience who doesn't want to spend any time thinking about
>  "hard" subjects.
>
>> The show could easily be called "Young Friedrich Nietzsche in Late
>> Twentieth Century Suburbia."
>
>  I would say it's a comic-book or Weekly-Reader treatment of these
>  topics.  To me there's no complexity or depth to their treatment
>  of these things; everything is laid out in graphic simplicity.
>
>>There is so much depth and texture to the show you truly get out of it
>> what you put in in terms of the effort you exert in watching it.
>
>  I think what's happening is that you're getting out of it MORE
>  than what the writers originally put in.  The "meaning" of the
>  content is coming from inside your, kind of like a video Rorshach
>  (sp?) test.
>
>
>---peter
>


I think you might be passing judgement on a show you have watched
very little.  If you don't like it, don't watch it.

--- Kerry

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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:46:10 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> [...]
|>   There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
|> continue to sweep them under the rug.  [...]

To conclude that there is not adequate evidence upon which to base
any conclusions is *not* the same as to "sweep them under the rug."
For most paranormal subjects, there is not even enough evidence to
conclude that there really *IS* a phenomenon - much less is there
sufficient evidence for analysis of properties and/or causes of the
phenomenon.

Note: *evidence* is defined as information which can be acquired by
any *independent* investigator without reliance on faulty (and possibly
biased) "witnesses" whose claims are purely anecdotal.

|> [...]                               One of them is spontaneous human
|> combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.

Find me even *one* case in which it can be determined independently
that 1) someone has really burned and 2) there were no mundane causes
of combustion present - then, and only then, will you even *have*
a phenomenon to study.  You can't study something whose very existence
you can't even verify.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Appropriate news groups (was: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: arlt.flame
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:01:53 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kalki Dasa) writes:
|> [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes:
|>
|> > The major problem is not inappropriate subjects (which will die
|> > out if they really aren't of common interest).  The real problem
|> > is cross-posting.
|>
|> So, why was this article cross-posted to four different newsgroups,
|> then?

I'll have to admit to being lazy (and also to wanting all who saw
the original article to see my reply as well).  As a matter of fact,
I didn't cross-post.  I merely replied to a subject thread which
was alreayd cross-posted.  In fact, I only read sci.skeptic of all
the above newsgroups.  Sorry for the cross-post - all followups to
this are directed to alt.flame (which is, as far as I'm concerned,
the same as /dev/null).

And you're right, I should have redirected the previous article.
I'm only cross posting now to inform everyone that this is indeed
the last they will see (at least from me) on this thread.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:39:16 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 14

    In this ongoing debate over the quality of programs on networks, I have
to agree with all and differ with none. But still I have to post, here are my
reasons for not being addicted to Star Trek.
1) The story starts expanding slowly and by the last ten minutes it has become
rather interesting(sometimes). Voila, someone comes up with a brilliant
solution, presses afew buttons and the show is over.
2) All the aliens are humanoids, why do they have to have two legs and two arms
and shit on their face.
3) Picard trys to hard to be Sean Connery.
4) No real suspense, it has just become a sort of noveaux techno sort of think.
I watch Start Trek. Therefore, I must be smart.
    But I admit that sometimes they explore issues with a lot more insight,
and the graphics are pretty good to. Most of my freinds are Trekkies, but I
would rather watch Batman The Animated Series. Now that is pure entertainement.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13708 alt.alien.visitors:12921 sci.skeptic:37371
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:50:02 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>>  I think what's happening is that you're getting out of it MORE
>>  than what the writers originally put in.  The "meaning" of the
>>  content is coming from inside your, kind of like a video Rorshach
>>  (sp?) test.
>
>But isn't there value in that?  Doesn't the writing have to be somewhat
>inspired in order to motivate the kinds of discussions and ideas people have
>when they see these shows?

  I don't know -- intelligent people can "see the universe in a drop
  of dew", but this doesn't say anything in particular about the drop
  of dew.  There is a well-known standup comedian (Howie Mandell?)
  who has a routine involving Bazooka Joe (of bubble gum comic fame)
  and his friend, whose name escapes me at the moment -

  In the first panel Bazooka Joe throws a clock out the window.  His
  friend asks, "Why did you throw that clock out the Window, Bazooka
  Joe?"  And Bazooka Joe says, "Because I wanted to see time fly."
  (Audience titters - comedian continues:) "Time, Bazooka Joe?  Isn't
  that a rather ethereal concept? . . . " -- and continues in this
  new vein for several more lines elevating Bazooka Joe and his friends
  to higher philosophical status than the bubble-gum company ever
  imagined.

  Using your line of reasoning, one could probably find a starting
  off point for a perfectly intelligent discussion in Lost In Space,
  Gilligan's Island, or even a Usenet posting.   But this is not to
  say that these things are, in and of themselves, intelligently
  thought out, insightful, or cogent -- only that some theme, plot
  element, or phrase inspired or stimulated actual thought on the
  part of a viewer.


---peter

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From: [e-mail] (Neuromancer)
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Organization: Cyberspace
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:01:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>>Title says it all really.
>
>"fucking wanker" is an oxymoron.
>
>                        -- K.

So is John_-_Winston (note correct spelling), so the original statement is
correct.

Neuromancer
{the uncontested @ibo}

--
--------------------- All comments and opinions are my own --------------------
Bryan Fullerton aka Neuromancer                         Computer Variables, Inc
[e-mail]                         155 East Beaver Creek, Unit 27
uunet.ca!comspec!cspace!neuro            Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada L4B 2N2
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:50:43 GMT
Lines: 73

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes in part:
|> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> |> [...]
|> |>   There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
|> |> continue to sweep them under the rug.  [...]
|> |> [...]                               One of them is spontaneous human
|> |> combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.

|> You can't study something whose very existence
|> you can't even verify.

Well, actually folklorists do it all the time.  And the analogy is
HIGHLY relevant:  folk beliefs and stories have meanings, purposes,
and existance that has nothing at all to do with claims of "scientific"
or "rational" existence.

Persistent claims of paranormal phenomena, such as, SHC, and persistent
claims that these wonders are "being swept under the rug" DEFINITELY
mean SOMETHING.   I hestiate to theorize exactly what these beliefs
might mean, but I do not think they are necessarily claims about either
science or "reality".

Anyway, these claims CAN be studied, at least if you treat them as
folk traditions and act accordingly.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Distribution: world
Followup-To:
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> |> [...]
|> |>   There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
|> |> continue to sweep them under the rug.  [...]
|>
|> To conclude that there is not adequate evidence upon which to base
|> any conclusions is *not* the same as to "sweep them under the rug."
|> For most paranormal subjects, there is not even enough evidence to
|> conclude that there really *IS* a phenomenon - much less is there
|> sufficient evidence for analysis of properties and/or causes of the
|> phenomenon.
|>
|> Note: *evidence* is defined as information which can be acquired by
|> any *independent* investigator without reliance on faulty (and possibly
|> biased) "witnesses" whose claims are purely anecdotal.
|>
|> |> [...]                               One of them is spontaneous human
|> |> combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
|>
|> Find me even *one* case in which it can be determined independently
|> that 1) someone has really burned and 2) there were no mundane causes
|> of combustion present - then, and only then, will you even *have*
|> a phenomenon to study.  You can't study something whose very existence
|> you can't even verify.
|>
|> --
|> J. Giles

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 25 Jan 1993 23:05:16 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca.
Lines: 42
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



[e-mail] (Scott Leaf) writes:

>How dare you call ST:TNG and DS9 Lowbrow!
>You quasi-intellectuals piss me off.

That's an interesting reaction.  Why would you take it so personally
that somebody criticized a couple of television shows you happen to like?
Does that somehow impair your ability to enjoy these shows?  If so, why?
If not, then why do you care what anyone else thinks about them?


>The greatest contribution to society you have ever made is probably the
>message that I am replying too.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?  That's a fallacious
statement; it's known in educated circles as an ad hominem attack, and it
doesn't prove a thing.  Someone's not being a cultural giant himself
doesn't mean he's forfeited all right to comment on cultural matters.
Your apparent beliefs to the contrary don't put you in a very good light.


>I also find it quite rewarding that The Simpsons contributed to your
>decision to nix TV.  You really must have a good sense of humour, a
>regular Jerry Steinfeld!

You've got a lot of respect for differing tastes in televised entertainment,
don't you?

Come back when you've reached puberty.



Geoff


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller            + + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
[e-mail]    + + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

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From: [e-mail] (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Help me name my cat
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: EMACS, John_-_Winston.el, GNU Public License
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: db.tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Linux
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:03:34 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bruce Ediger) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matt Welsh) writes:
>
>Under the Terms of the GNU Public License, Matt_-_Welsh will be posting
>"John_-_Winston.el" immediately.  This is notable, as it is the 2nd
>attempt at "Artificial Unintelligence" (c.f. "kibologize.el") written
>in Emacs lisp.
>
>A hearty round of applause for Mr Welsh's public spirited programming, please.

Piece o' cake. Anything I can do to better the efforts of the GNU people,
the pleasure is all mine, this is John_-_Winston.el:

;; john_-_winston by Matt Welsh
;; This function comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, but I hope that you
;; like it and use it often.

(defun john_-_winston ()
  "John_-_Winston takes over your emacs buffer."
  (goto-char (point-min))
  (insert-string "Dear Folks:\n")
  (while (re-search-forward "[ \t]+" nil t)
    (replace-match "_-_"))
  (goto-char (point-max))
  (insert-string "\n\nJohn_-_Winston."))


mdw
--
Matt Welsh     [e-mail]     Cornell Theory Center
  "Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.good.news
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 02:08:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Dear Folks: All is well in California.
>>John Winston.
>
>That *is* good news!

Don't believe it for a second.

--
Dave Schaumann            [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 03:25:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Boy, with Kibo and Sarfatti both posting on here now
I'm getting a little confused.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13713 alt.alien.visitors:12928 alt.religion.kibology:6008
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:22:00 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>1>+F
>!Subject: UFO Fix.
>  Are you not feeling well? Do you have the jake-leg, hammer toes or piles?
>Well then all you have to do is go and jump on a flying saucer and they will
>fix you up good.

John, one can't say you don't have a great sense of humor.

>hen he stumbled into a rocky ravine, but his life was saveFwF
>BAmTWKP
>^N/O3    ,.T [...]
>0Roman 10cpi UFO hadn't come along when it did. Yes I was scared."
>   "But those guys took good care of me. I never felt

John, one can't say you told your wordprocessor "Save As ASCII."  You're
the only person on the net ever to mention the Roman 10cpi UFO!

                    -- K.
                    Word processors are like
                    food processors.  Me, I'm
                    a Kibology processor.
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston=fucking wanker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:28:06 GMT
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Organization: AT&T
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Everybody:  I am listening to all of your comments. Thanks to

How do you do that? I can't hear a thing?

> Andrew for his good words, and I believe Press2 may win some sort of
> award for his come-backs to my postings.

Thank you, but i already have a ward. well it's a ward doll, i'm
still trying to match him with a june. know where i can find one?
Thanks.

> John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mr Sarfatti? Anyone?? Help Wanted Desperately!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 14
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:38:59 GMT

Hello?????

    This is a desperate call to Mr Sarfatti and anyone else who
can assist. My research group is working on a quasi crystal
constant G boost space drive, we really need some help in the
physics and chemestry areas as well as enegineering and other
areas, Sorry to use the news group like this but finding
people who actually know what they are talking about with working
knowledge and experience is somewhat difficult.

    Thank you for your time
            Lynn


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Subject: Re: Moon surface: No ETs
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:55:52 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 29

You said:

After watching the NASA tapes on the apollo missions to the moon there is
one thing that really stands out. The surface of the moon has very little
erosion and the impact craters are billions of years old. The tracks left
by the astronauts will be there for millions of years and yet they did not
see any evidents of other tracks. This can lead to the conculsion that any
ETs skipped over the moon or any landing marks have not been found.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say:

Why would any beings who had the capacity to travel distances that are
measured in light years and live to tell about it care to land on one of the
most uninteresting spheres our solar system has to offer?  It is probably a
very typical type of moon in our Galaxy and thus offers absolutely no
compelling study for our alien friends.

What do you think?

--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Who is it dear?                    |  Don't fear the Reaper,
It's a quaint little man from the   |  Fear your government.
village...something about the       |
reaping!?"                          |  [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:35:57 GMT
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: Boy, with Kibo and Sarfatti both posting on here now
>I'm getting a little confused.

My Sarfatti impression kills them at parties.  Or rather, it kills parties.

                            -- K.

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:49:41 GMT
Lines: 218

[seen in--of all places--alt.postmodern:]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>     Although the following article is on the subject of religious studies, it
>illustrates some important facts about the Universe:
>
>     (1) The physical universe is ONLY the LOWEST of at least a DOZEN major
>levels of existence.
>
>     (2) Certain phenomena which seem to have no physical origin result from
>INTERACTIONS between the physical universe and HIGHER LEVELS.
>
>     (3) It is possible for INDIVIDUALS to PERSONALLY explore the Universe,
>including our Solar System, using forms of "SOUL TRAVEL".  Some of these forms
>are also known as "out-of-body travel" and "Astral projection".  [This is
>DANGEROUS without the protection of a Perfect Living Master as described
>below.]
>
>
>                      THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
>
>               Most Christians would agree, and correctly so, that
>          Jesus Christ was a perfect living Master, and a projection of
>          God into the physical world, God Incarnate.
>
>               But there are some very important related facts that
>          Christians are COMPLETELY IGNORANT of, as are followers of
>          most other world religions.
>
>               First, Jesus Christ was NOT unique, John 3:16 NOTWITH-
>          STANDING.  There is ALWAYS at least one such perfect living
>          Master (God Incarnate) PHYSICALLY ALIVE in this world AT ALL
>          TIMES, a continuous succession THROUGHOUT HISTORY, both
>          before and after the life of Jesus.
>
>               The followers of some of these Masters founded the
>          world's major religions, usually PERVERTING the teachings of
>          their Master in the process.  Christians, for example, added
>          THREATS of "ETERNAL DAMNATION" in Hell, and DELETED the
>          teaching of REincarnation.
>
>               Secondly, and more importantly, after a particular
>          Master physically dies and leaves this world, there is
>          NOTHING that He can do for ANYbody except for the relatively
>          few people that He INITIATED while He was still physically
>          alive.  (That is simply the way God set things up in the
>          Universes.)
>
>               Therefore, all those Christians who worship Jesus, and
>          pray to Jesus, and expect Jesus to return and save them from
>          their sins, are only KIDDING THEMSELVES, and have allowed
>          themselves to be DUPED by a religion that was mostly
>          MANUFACTURED by the Romans.
>
>               And emotional "feelings" are a TOTALLY DECEIVING
>          indicator for religious validity.
>
>               These things are similarly true for followers of most
>          other major world religions, including Islam.
>
>               Thirdly, the primary function of each Master is to tune
>          His Initiates into the "AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM" or "SOUND
>          CURRENT", (referred to as "THE WORD" in John 1:1-5, and as
>          "The River of Life" in Revelation 22:1), and to personally
>          guide each of them thru the upper levels of Heaven while they
>          are still connected to their living physical bodies by a
>          "silver cord".
>
>               True Salvation, which completes a Soul's cycles of
>          REincarnation in the physical and psychic planes, is achieved
>          only by reaching at least the "SOUL PLANE", which is five
>          levels or universes above the physical universe, and this
>          canNOT be done without the help of a Perfect LIVING Master.
>
>               One such perfect Master alive today is an American, Sri
>          Harold Klemp, the Living "Eck" Master or "Mahanta" for the
>          "Eckankar" organization, now headquartered in Minneapolis,
>          (P.O. Box 27300;  zip 55427).
>
>               Another perfect living Master is Maharaj Gurinder Singh
>          Ji, now living in Punjab, India, and is associated with the
>          "Sant Mat" organization.
>
>               One of the classic books on this subject is "THE PATH OF
>          THE MASTERS" (Radha Soami Books, P.O. Box 242, Gardena, CA
>          90247), written in 1939 by Dr. Julian Johnson, a theologian
>          and surgeon who spent the last years of his life in India
>          studying under and closely observing the Sant Mat Master of
>          that time, Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji.
>
>               Several of the Eckankar books, including some authored
>          by Sri Paul Twitchell or Sri Harold Klemp, can be found in
>          most public and university libraries and some book stores, or
>          obtained thru inter-library loan.  The book "ECKANKAR--THE
>          KEY TO SECRET WORLDS", by Sri Paul Twitchell, is ANOTHER
>          classic.
>
>               Many Christians are likely to confuse the Masters with
>          the "Anti-Christ", which is or was to be a temporary world
>          dictator during the so-called "last days".  But the Masters
>          don't ever rule, even when asked or expected to do so as
>          Jesus was.
>
>               People who continue following Christianity, Islam, or
>          other orthodox religions with a physically DEAD Master, will
>          CONTINUE on their cycles of REincarnation, between the
>          psychic planes and this MISERABLE physical world, until they
>          finally WISE UP!
>
>
>
>          RE-INCARNATION
>
>               The book "HERE AND HEREAFTER", by Ruth Montgomery,
>          describes several kinds of evidence supporting REincarnation
>          as a FACT OF LIFE, including HYPNOTIC REGRESSIONS to past
>          lives, SPONTANEOUS RECALL (especially by young children, some
>          of whom can identify their most recent previous relatives,
>          homes, possessions, etc.), DREAM RECALL of past life experi-
>          ences, DEJA VU (familiarity with a far off land while travel-
>          ing there for the first time on vacation), the psychic read-
>          ings of the late EDGAR CAYCE, and EVEN SUPPORTING STATEMENTS
>          FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE including Matthew 17:11-13 (John the
>          Baptist was the REINCARNATION of Elias.) and John 9:1-2 (How
>          can a person POSSIBLY sin before he is born, unless he LIVED
>          BEFORE?!).  [ ALWAYS use the "KING JAMES VERSION".  Later
>          versions are PER-VERSIONS! ]  Strong INTERESTS, innate
>          TALENTS, strong PHOBIAS, etc., typically originate from a
>          person's PAST LIVES.  For example, a strong fear of swimming
>          in or traveling over water usually results from having
>          DROWNED at the end of a PREVIOUS LIFE.  And sometimes a
>          person will take AN IMMEDIATE DISLIKE to another person being
>          met for the first time, because of a bad encounter with him
>          during a PREVIOUS INCARNATION.
>
>               The teaching of REincarnation also includes the LAW OF
>          KARMA (Galatians 6:7, Revelation 13:10, etc.).  People would
>          behave much better toward each other if they knew that their
>          actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the
>          future, or in a FUTURE INCARNATION!
>
>
>
>          "2nd COMINGS"
>
>               If a Perfect Living Master physically dies ("trans-
>          lates") before a particular Initiate of His does, then when
>          that Initiate physically dies ("translates"), the Master will
>          meet him on the Astral level and take him directly to the
>          Soul Plane.  This is the ONE AND ONLY correct meaning of a
>          2nd Coming.  It is an INDIVIDUAL experience, NOT something
>          that happens for everyone all at once.  People who are still
>          waiting for Jesus' "2nd Coming" are WAITING IN VAIN.
>
>
>
>          PLANES OF EXISTENCE
>
>               The physical universe is the LOWEST of AT LEAST a DOZEN
>          major levels of existence.  Above the Physical Plane is the
>          Astral Plane, the Causal Plane, the Mental Plane, the Etheric
>          Plane (often counted as the upper part of the Mental Plane),
>          the Soul Plane, and several higher Spiritual Planes.  The
>          Soul Plane is the FIRST TRUE HEAVEN, (counting upward from
>          the Physical).  The planes between (but NOT including) the
>          Physical and Soul Planes are called the Psychic Planes.
>
>               It is likely that ESP, telepathy, astrological
>          influences, radionic effects, biological transmutations [See
>          the 1972 book with that title.], and other phenomena without
>          an apparent physical origin, result from INTERACTIONS between
>          the Psychic Planes and the Physical Plane.
>
>               The major planes are also SUB-DIVIDED.  For example, a
>          sub-plane of the Astral Plane is called "Hades", and the
>          Christian Hell occupies a SMALL part of it, created there
>          LESS THAN 2000 YEARS AGO by the EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH by some
>          kind of black magic or by simply teaching its existence in a
>          THREATENING manner.  The Christian "Heaven" is located
>          elsewhere on the Astral Plane.  Good Christians will go there
>          for a short while and then REincarnate back to Earth.
>
>
>
>          SOUND CURRENT vs. BLIND FAITH
>
>               The Christian religion demands of its followers an
>          extraordinary amount of BLIND FAITH backed up by little more
>          than GOOD FEELING (which is TOTALLY DECEIVING).
>
>               If a person is not HEARING some form of the "SOUND
>          CURRENT" ("THE WORD", "THE BANI", "THE AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM"),
>          then his cycles of REINCARNATION in this MISERABLE world WILL
>          CONTINUE.
>
>               The "SOUND CURRENT" manifests differently for different
>          Initiates, and can sound like a rushing wind, ocean waves on
>          the sea shore, buzzing bees, higher-pitched buzzing sound, a
>          flute, various heavenly music, or other sounds.  In Eckankar,
>          Members start hearing it near the end of their first year as
>          a Member.  This and other experiences (such as "SOUL TRAVEL")
>          REPLACE blind faith.
>
>
>
>               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
>          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED and I ENJOY stuffing
>          LARGE SHARP NEEDLES into VARIOUS bodily ORIFICES while
>          watching the EXCITING syndicated TV series, "SMALL WONDER".
>
>
>                                           Robert E. McElwaine
>                                           2nd Initiate in Eckankar

All I have to say to this is that Rev. Ivan Stang, who owns the Church
of the SubGenius, called Eckankar "The Stupidest Cult(TM)".  And HE
KNOWS STUPID CULTS!
                            -- K.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:02:55 GMT
Lines: 34

[e-mail] writes:
>> >I don't think anyone would argue that the military does lots of things
>> >that are secret.
>> >But, this is irrelevant to the question that has been asked.
>> >A.) They claimed it was just a weather balloon.
>> >B.) But, if it's just a weather balloon, why all the secrecy?

[e-mail]  writes:
>> Let's say they were testing MANNED balloons as a recon platform or to set
>> an altitude record and something went wrong and the crew was killed.  It
>> would be very embarrassing public relations-wise if this go out.  This sounds
>> like a plausible reason for secrecy.

Joe Citro III writes:
>        If this were true then why draw attention to the incident by claiming
>        the recovery of a disk?  At the time there was a substantial reward for
>        physical evidence of flying saucers ( UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL-RANDLE/
>        SCHMITT).  Consequently, a claim of such evidence would be sure to
>        attract unwanted attention to the theoretical manned balloon crash
>        site.

Ok, so you don't like the manned idea.  How about, the balloon is carrying
particulate collectors to look for fallout from US or Soviet Nuclear tests.
You post a reward so people will turn in the "disks" rather than keep them.

The US Govt. keeps plenty of things secret for a long time.  There are OSI
files still classified for over 50 years now.

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 06:13:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 41


    [e-mail] (Mike Markowski) writes:
    Someone would tell his wife or best friend or let it slip on
    his death bed, etc.

O'course, this has actually happened.  For instance, "Pappy" Henderson
told his wife.  Jesse Marcel talked to various people.  Mac Brazel was
specifically told *not* to talk to anyone.  Various people have come
to Len Stringfield (for, among other things, his proven discretion) --
I recommend his various reports (most available from MUFON) about a
number of UFO-related things.  Also have a read of Randle and
Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell", for lists of people who witnessed
events at Roswell.

    After so many decades the most likely reason an et vehicle
    could remain secret is if something so big or so bad were
    discovered that it left no doubt in anyone's mind that it
    should remain secret.

... yes.  I have said before that a secret is easy to keep if everyone
involved *wants* to keep it secret (or at least has a vested interest
in keeping it secret.)

    But in that case, we should observe some major shift in
    governmental goals and policies, and we haven't.

... well, now let's not get too hasty.  Major shifts from what to
what?  Do we know for certain that the late-1950's "race for space"
was motivated solely because of fear of a (as was known at the time,
at least in some government circles) relatively inferior Soviet
capability?


    Consider NASA's continuing quest for a reasonable budget.

... NASA's budget is not by any means the entirety of the US space
effort (and never was).  Ever hear of a KH-11?  (I know Vandenburg AFB
is a long way from you, but surely you've heard of it!  :-) Have a
read of William Burrows' "Deep Black"  for more.

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Subject: strange encounters
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:54:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 21

Well, well, well.  I've not logged on in two months and I see little has
changed.  John's still filling the ether with Enquirer garbage and people are
discussing Star trek as if they were real aliens.  I'm happy that we're all
still so serious.  What happened to those blistering incriminations from the
e.t. purists?  Did they get their own group?
        Where have I been you ask?  You don't?  Let me tell you.  I was
abducted by aliens for Christmas.  This was after having to move to avoid and
alien overlord who wanted me to have his children.  I took an alias as a bean
bag chair but these party aliens still got me.  We managed to derail John's
astral train and take some corns off of Bigfoot's toes.  He pined a sigh of
relief and I screamed in happiness for the Jovian jive juice I drank.
        Later when I felt like a vegetable those damn aliens transplanted my
brain with, um let's see, yes, with peas.  I'll never be hungry again.  Not
only that but I think that life is wonderful and that our government and our
fellow neighbor's the U.S. of A is very righteous and holy.  Brian Mulroney
isn't an egotist and the world will be all right.  Don't worry I'm all right
now...Nothing's changed.  ;)
        Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (RISHI)
Subject: Re: hEI hEI
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: circular gravity
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet system)
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:18:07 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fred Curtis) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Fred Curtis)
>Subject: Re: hEI hEI
>Keywords: circular gravity
>Date: 9 Feb 91 04:53:14 GMT

>In article <[e-mail]> nIS writes:
>>hELLO eARTHBEINGS,
>>
>>AFTER  DAYS SEVERAL RECONNAISANCE, HAVE WE FOIND A LANDING SITE. iT IS
>>HERE NEAR tRENGEREID, NOT VERY FAR FROM sLARTIBARTFAST'S MONOGRAM, i THINK
>>THEY CALL THIS PLACE NORGYWAY. pEOPLE OF THE eNGLISH TONGS SPEAK OF
>>THE NORGEYS. wE WILL BE UPDATING WITH MORE DETAILS OF OUR PLANNED TOUR
>>OF THE EARTH PLANET LATER, WHEN WE ARE NOT SO BUSY. wE MUST FIRST SEE REPORTS
>>OG OUR ARRIVAL IN THE LOCAL RAG - i THINK THEY CALL IT baBLAD.
>>
>>nIS
>>
>>(a ROUGH TRANSLATION OF MY REAL NAME TO YOUR CHARACTER SET)

>Excuse me, but this is my first posting (again).  Testing?  Testing?
>I have been rereading this newsgroup all my life but I still do not
>understand one thing.  What is a 'fnord'?  The only other place I
>have heard this word was in a monty python sketch:

>        Irate customer:  He's dead!
>        Shop manager:    No, he's not dead!  He's pining for the fnords!
>        Irate customer:  Paining for fee-nords?  What kind of talk is that?

>My good friend 'Robert' lent me a book by Douglas Addams.  I don't
>think I believe EVERYTHING in it, but I think it mentioned something
>about Fnords in Norgyway.  Is that near Paraguay?  Is Slartifartblast a
>REAL person?

>Can anyone tell me about the green golfball joke?

hello guys, I really don't know what ya are trying to write but I would like
some explanation from ya. o.k

Please dont judge this guy too harshly - he comes from Mauritius. nuff said.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13718 alt.alien.visitors:12939
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:34:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 30

According to [e-mail] (Don Allen):
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Ask Don about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  _Then_ praise him.
>
>I already settled this in email...

You _denied_ it in E-Mail, you didn't settle it.

The fact remains that you publicly posted that the Protocols were, and
I quote, ``DAMN specific'' about who were the people responsible for
various and sundry bad things in the world.  That statement could only
come from a person who considered the Protocols to be real.

>so WHY are you deliberately provoking a negative response and casting
>apersions about _my_ character when you know less than dog shit about
>me or what things *I* go through?

It's true, I know little about you.  But then, I _write_ little about
you.  That's because I write only what I know.

>... if you don't [shut up] I will surely add your name encoded in a
>most derogatory way conceivable in every *text* I disseminate, which
>I might add is a considerable amount.

Ah, extortion.  How noble.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon, no ETs
Date: 26 Jan 1993 12:55:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 22
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

You said:

>Why would any beings who had the capacity to travel distances that are
>measured in light years and live to tell about it care to land on one of the
>most uninteresting spheres our solar system has to offer?  It is probably a
>very typical type of moon in our Galaxy and thus offers absolutely no
>compelling study for our alien friends.

>What do you think?

OK, the moon is uninteresting compared to the earth but these aliens are not
so smart if you believe in the Roswell testimony. The earth is like an oasis
in space and the ETs do not want us to destroy it. Therefore they would
want to monitor dangerous activities on earth. A station on the moon
would have been a good spot before man started to explore space but they
have skipped over the moon. So either the moon is too far from the earth
for them to monitor or they knew leaving tracks would be discovered in
the future.

--
dano:

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:01:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian Wood) writes:
>Peter Nelson writes:
>   I gave up watching TV altogether a year or so ago precisely because
>   the very best it could manage was ca-ca like the Simpsons or STNG,
>   masquerading as quality for "thinking viewers" (almost an oxymoron)
>   when in reality it's distinctly lowbrow.
>
>   The average Star Trek viewer is a child of the TV generation and
>   isn't very well-read.   So he doesn't realize that all these
>   themes are treated with VASTLY greater insight and wit in such
>   diverse writings as Greek classical literature, the Bible, the
>   Vedic scripts, Shakespeare, and thousands of great works of 19th
>   and 20th century literature, including important works of science
>   fiction!
>
>Peter, I very much take exception to this.  I thought you were better
>informed.  I, as an engineer, know many engineers who love Star Trek for
>the moral, ethical, political and human rights issues it consistently
>raises with a thin veneer of sci-fi,

  Nobody denies that it *raises* these issues.  My point is that
  it only addresses them in the most simplistic, unsophisticated
  manner imaginable.   I'm taking issue with those here who say
  that Star Trek is intellectually sophisticated.   Nietzsche
  or Hume might be intellectually sophisticated in matters of
  philosophy, Bell or Einstein in matters of physics, Hofstadter
  or Kuhn in matters of the philosophy of science, etc, to take
  some of the subjects that Star Trek touches on.

  But when I say things like this someone else is bound to
  retort, "But it's only a TV show!".  Well, no shit, Sherlock,
  but we can't have our cake and eat it too.   Unless "intellec-
  tually sophisticated" is going to have a different definition
  for TV than for every other medium, we have to face facts.
  And the fact is that while Star Trek may passingly acknowledge
  the existence of Great Issues it sheds precious little light
  on them for anyone who's reasonably well-educated.


> and I'll bet if you surveyed the engineers at the Chelmsford plant,
> you'd find an awful lot of other Trekkers.

  So?

>Star Trek derives many of its themes from Shakespeare, and many of the
>actors are Shakespearean.

  So?  Gilligan's Island could well be likened to "The Tempest"
  but there the comparison ends.


>Star Trek represents humankinds best hopes and dreams for a future we
>can be proud of.

  How do you draw this conclusion?



---peter




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:08:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard) writes:
>
>You, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writ
>
>PN/*   current topics.   Flattery, it seems, will get you *everywhere*
>PN/*   with the TV generation:  tell them that they're intelligent and
>PN/*   that they demonstrate this by watching your "intellectually
>PN/*   stimulating" TV show and they'll tune in in droves.
>
>HA! 17 million Britons tune in to Cilla Black's _Blind Date_ every
>week. This is telling them they're shit-thick morons - and they love
>it. Nah, your theory is leaking.

  Either that, or to them it's flattery!


>(Hang on, this is rec.couch.potato, right? What have you done with
>John Winston's alt.alien.visitors? It's was here yesterday....)

  I put the whole thing in my kill file.  Just putting Winston
  in my kill file wasn't sufficient -- I still had to read all
  the responses to his drivel.   This is MY newsgroup now and
  I control the topics!    Next thread:  What Will Robinson and
  his robot did in Cleveland!


---peter

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:18:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Leaf) writes:
>How dare you call ST:TNG and DS9 Lowbrow!
>
>You quasi-intellectuals piss me off.
>
>The greatest contribution to society you have ever made is probably the
>message that I am replying too.  IF *you* don't watch TV then refrain from
>commenting on the above topic.
>
>I also find it quite rewarding that The Simpsons contributed to your decision
>to nix TV.  You really must have a good sense of humour, a regular Jerry
>Steinfeld! (or do you know who he is?)

  Of course; he's the guy who does the routines involving his
  dog ("It's that GUY!  He's home again!").

  Actually I love stand-up, and I don't try to flatter myself
  into thinking it's "intellectually stimulating".  But when
  I want stand-up I either go to a club or I rent a video
  where I can watch it for two hours without having to be
  interrupted every 6 minutes with ads for "Lee Press-On
  Nails" and random musical numbers, as they do on A&E's
  Evening at the Improv, or have the comedian's best work
  censored because it involves dirty words or topics not
  suitable for family viewing.  People like Redd Fox and
  Richard Pryor have some great stuff that you will never
  see on regular broadcast TV, only on occasional and rare
  specials on expensive premium channels, because it's too
  "adult".   Which just goes to show again, that TV treats
  its viwers like children.   Like everything else on TV,
  TV stand-up comedy is only a pale imitation of the real
  thing.


---peter




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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 04:59:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 51


    [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
    [generally accurate description of radar-targeting device]

... the Rawin target device (the one that the Roswell whateveritwas
is claimed to be) is towed by neoprene rubber balloon(s), under which
the targeting device is attached by string.  (Yes, string.)  At the
edges of the board frames for each reflector was stapled a slip of
typed paper reading "Property of Air Materiel Command Watson
Laboratories, Army Air Field (and then local launch addres)."

    The argument against anything "strange" seems to be that
    1) The development of radar itself was a secret undertaking.

... certainly not.  It took a little digging, but I found a reference
to radar (calling it "radiolocation of aircraft", which is what radar is;
the passage also includes describing its use in vectoring interceptors
to attacking air units) in "The Makers of Modern Strategy", by Edward
Mead Earle -- in 1943 (Princeton University Press, pg. 494.) ... 4
years before Roswell.  (Radar, of course, predates WWII, but I wanted
to be sure there was an unclassified reference to it before 1947.)

    2) The shape of the reflector (and being able to use something
    like this at all in a test) was secret.

... since the reflector is a series of triangles, so as to  be the
best reflector from any angle, I can't imagine it would be secret.
(And, see below about the Ohio incident.)

    3) The special metal alloy used was secret. It was very thin,
    very light, and very strong. It was, of course, extremely
    important that samples of the metal didn't get into enemy
    hands.  (Don't ask me what it was!)

... according to "Roswell, A Historical Perspective", the reflector
was made of aluminum foil.  (That would work, of course, suitably
thin, its plenty light.)

   The problem with all this is that on July 1, 1947 (several days
before the Roswell brouhaha), Mr. Sherman Campbell of Circleville,
Ohio, had found (according to the Circleville Herald) a balloon "about
50 inches high, 48 inches wide, and weighed about 2 pounds.  Silver
foil was stretched over a wooden frame... was a star-shaped object ...
had 6 points."  Sound familiar?  The wreckage, rather than being
swooped off by the USAAF to, well, anywhere, was allowed to sit in the
offices of the Circleville Herald for several days, and then returned
to the Campbell family as a souvenir.

   So why all the brouhaha in New Mexico?

Charles
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Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Monday, 25 Jan 1993 17:27:03 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
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TO: Suzanne Courey.
Thank you for subscribing.  The newsletter is on its way to you.
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:45:01 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>1>+F
>>!Subject: UFO Fix.
>>  Are you not feeling well? Do you have the jake-leg, hammer toes or piles?
>>Well then all you have to do is go and jump on a flying saucer and they will
>>fix you up good.
>
>John, one can't say you don't have a great sense of humor.
>
>>hen he stumbled into a rocky ravine, but his life was saveFwF
>>BAmTWKP
>>^N/O3    ,.T [...]
>>0Roman 10cpi UFO hadn't come along when it did. Yes I was scared."
>>   "But those guys took good care of me. I never felt
>
>John, one can't say you told your wordprocessor "Save As ASCII."  You're
>the only person on the net ever to mention the Roman 10cpi UFO!

It is true that most prefer Helvetica, or Times-Roman. Twelve points for
readability.

                     -- K.
>                    Word processors are like
>                    food processors.  Me, I'm
>                    a Kibology processor.


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Contact!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:16:02 GMT
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On the Mind-Matter Interaction
by Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D.

The connection between mind and matter is not a problem restricted to
philosophy and theology. It is a problem for new physics. Indeed, it may be
the fundamental problem for the new post-Einsteinian physics of quantum
connectivity beyond the confines of space and time.

The new physics is the telepathic physics of "The Force" without force
portrayed in the film "Star Wars". It is the Physics of Destiny. It is the
source of meaning. It is the generator of existence in a universe of
purpose uniting Man with God.

The new physics provides the beginnings of a paradigm for wholistic
medicine.  It provides ideas on how disease develops, how drugs work, how
electromagnetic machines influence health, how the body influences the mind
and how the mind influences the body.

Today we use our fingers to type messages into a computer.  This is
changing rapidly. We already have programs that respond to our voice
commands. We are beginning to develop programs coupled with sensitive
electromagnetic detectors that allow computers to respond to our tiny eye
movements. Soon the computers will respond to the electromagnetic
radiations from our brains that correspond to our thoughts.  The computer
will obey the commands of our unvoiced thoughts.  It will work both ways.
The computer will be able to generate thoughts, feelings and experiences
directly into our conscious and unconscious minds without audio and video
outputs.  This new "psychotronic" technology will, like any new technology,
have the potential for healing and harming.

How is the new physics different from the old physics?  The basic
difference is in that complex of connected ideas represented by the words:
"signal", "communication", "information", "meaning" and "value". Old
physics assumes that causes are always before their effects, and that the
only way to transfer information is by moving matter or radiation. New
physics permits causes to be after their effects under certain condition.
When an effect happens, the several causes of that effect are both in its
past and in its future. There is also a third possibility. A cause of the
effect can be faster-than-light  in Einstein's "absolute elsewhere" of that
effect. New physics also says that there are two modes of information
transfer. The first is the old physics mode, in which the information is
transferred by a carrier within Einstein's unified spacetime. The carrier
is either radiation or matter in motion (e.g., a radio or TV signal, a
sound wave packet, a courier etc.).

The second mode of information transfer is telepathic,
clairvoyant,psychokinetic and precognitive, alien to old physics but
familiar to prophets, mystics, poets and artists. It is communication on
the "nonlocal" quantum connection "beyond spacetime".  There is no single
direct carrier of matter or radiation moving directly from sender to
receiver. There are, however, two indirect connected carriers moving from a
third "source" to sender and receiver, respectively. Under certain
conditions called "delayed choice" the sender of information can be in the
far future of the receiver of that information.  It is in this sense that
we think of The Force without force or "La Forza del Destino".

The Princeton University Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory under
the former Dean of the Engineering College, Robert Jahn, claims that the
human mind has this "precognitive remote-viewing" ability. The "skeptics"
(e.g., former Scientific American columnist Martin Gardner's Committee to
Investigate Claims of the Paranormal), who only believe old physics, claim
that Dr. Jahn is misinterpreting is results with bad statistics. However, a
late station chief of the American Central Intelligence Agency assured me
that he had used "remote viewing" very successfully in covert operations
inside the Soviet Union during the peak of the Cold War. If Martin
Gardner's real motive is to hide the reality of remote viewing for reasons
of "national security", then he would naturally wish to debunk it.  The
American Army has published positive reports of "psychic warfare" in
several professional journals like Miltary Review and Signal.  The gossip
is that Martin Gardner and the arch-debunker, "The Amazing Randi" take
psychic phenomena very seriously. That is why they came down so hard on Uri
Geller because they believe him to be an imposter - a stage magician in
psychic clothes. It is certainly true that Randi can do everything that
Geller can do. It is also true that Geller fails rigorous tests set up by
other stage magicians. On the other hand, I saw topologically intricate
twisted metal allegedly bent by psychics in Brazil that is very puzzling.
The reader should form his own opinion. As a scientist, I do not have an
opinion on the reality of psychokinetic metal-bending at this point in
time.

We must be more precise about telepathic information transfer on the
quantum connection. The quantum connection was discovered by Einstein in
the early 1930's in his debate with Bohr on the completeness of the new
quantum mechanics of quantum jumping electrons (in atoms, molecules and
crystals) emitting and absorbing photons. Both electrons and photons, under
certain experimental conditions, behaved like tiny particles, while
behaving as spread-out waves under different incompatible experimental
conditions.  All quantum particles obeyed the Heisenberg uncertainty
principle. This principle asserts that observable properties of the
particle like its position and its momentum were incompatible. That is, an
increase in the precision of our measurement of one property would decrease
the precision in a simultaneous measurement of the other incompatible
property.  This was something new, not found in Newton's classical
mechanics of gravitational or electromagnetic forces causing particles to
accelerate (i.e. change speed or direction or both).

Einstein thought about a simple molecule that split into two atoms that
flew away from each other in opposite direction. He showed that the
Heisenberg uncertainty principle for one of the atoms could not be true
unless there was a real quantum connection or an "action at a distance"
between the two atoms. This long-range connection was qualitatively
different from from the known long-range forces of gravitation and
electromagnetism. The known forces weaken with increasing separation
between the two particles. Quite the contrary is the case for the quantum
connection which persists undiminished with increasing separation in either
space or time. Einstein called this "telepathic" and "spooky action at a
distance". Quantum mechanics seems to open the door to a precise
mathematical voodoo, i.e., embracing or "entangled" quantum
"wavefunctions".

An experiment by Alain Aspect at the University of Paris in 1982 on a pair
of photons emitted in opposite directions by a calcium atom shows
conclusively that such a theoretically predicted faster-than-light quantum
connection is real.  There is a "loophole" that must be plugged when more
efficient photon detectors become available. To really be sure the photon
detectors must be at least 83% efficient. Aspect's detectors are
considerably less efficient. However, the extremely good agreement between
the experimental data and the theoretical curve of standard quantum
mechanics makes most experts quite confident that the loophole when plugged
will not overturn Aspect's result.

We must however be clear that Aspect's discovery is not sufficient to
establish the factuality of useful faster-than-light communication in which
the quantum connection is a communication channel. A communication channel
means that we must be able to encode a message at the sender and to decode
it at the receiver.  In Aspect's experiment it is easy to encode the
message but it is impossible to decode it by observations at the receiver
alone. One must compare or "correlate" the observations from both the
receiver and the sender in order to decode the message. This, unfortunately
defeats the purpose. On the other hand, this observed quantum connectedness
may be vital in understanding the coherent behavior of complex living
systems. There is little doubt that a deeper understanding of the webs of
quantum connectivity between widely separated spinning electrons on DNA and
enzymes will lead to more effective medicine in the battle against disease
and aging. It will also lead to a new psychotronic nano-technology
interfacing mind to machine including new healing therapies.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Marc G Fournier)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:16:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
>Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
>these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
>circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
>had enough proof otherwise)?
>
    I remember seeing something on A&E about that.  What *I* understand is
that they proved that they could be made by men, and that some of them where actually
hoaxes, but they don't think they are all hoaxes.  Something about some of them having
patterns that couldn't be man-made, or were too difficult to make so something like that.

Marc
--
Marc G. Fournier      | R-node Public Access Unix running Linux 0.99p4
Etobicoke, Ontario    | 416-249-5366   24hrs 7 days/week   network email
voice: 249-4230       | shell accounts       1600+ newsgroups       FREE
[e-mail] | Telebit WorldBlazer/SupraModem2400/Cardinal 2400
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: Don't Worry Be Happy.
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:13:00 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 6

>-- K.
>Never shout "Theater!" in
> fired crowd.

...and never shout "VACUUM!" in
a crowded space port.
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:51:06 GMT
Lines: 120


Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!

[e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem) posts...

>This is reply to message 12865, posted by Mr. Richard Payne.
>In an earlier message, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:

[edited for readability, ^Ms deleted]

>>Detection of a wobble by photographic means has always seemed a bit
>>suspicious to me. It seems that the error must exceed the magnitude
>>of the wobble. Perhaps use of CCDs would reduce the errors. This is
>>something about which I have doubts, can anyone confirm the inaccuracies
>>present in photographic detection?
>
>Please read posts more carefully.  Photographic detection of the type
>that you seem to refer to was not mentioned and, as you point out, would
>probably not detect a wobble.

Not so, intitial detection of this kind of wobble -was- done with
photographic methods. This was how the companion to Barnards star
was discovered. It was what I was referring to.

You need to divorce yourself from the notion that I must reference only
what you have posted, and that you need not address any points made not
in reference to your earlier text. The universe does not revolve around
your consciousness.

>                                 But I was not referring to this method.

I was.

>My fault -- I should have spelled out "interferometry," which can detect
>stellar diameters as small as 0.00041 arc-second, making use of the wave
>nature of light.  This technique was first used with the 100-inch Mt.
>Wilson telescope back in the 1920's, so I assumed that anyone interested
>in the subject would be well aware of this.

You have other faults, do not flatter yourself. Gee, light has a wave
nature! Gosh. Golly, wait till I tell Gomer...

Interferometry, because of it's greater sensivitity, has other problems.

>My original post said:
>
>>>One might raise the objection that these companions are too large to be
>>>called planets.  If they are nonluminous and orbiting a star, I don't
>>>know what else you'd call them.
>>So you would call a black hole or a neutron star a planet? The universe
>>may be a bit young for black dwarfs, but these would also fit the bill.
>>But cooler expired stars might not be detectable due to their small
>>surface area.
>
>No, I would not call a black hole or a neutron star a planet.  Don't be
>ridiculous!  The only nonluminous bodies with masses well below that of
>the star they are orbiting are planets, at least as far as we know.  If
>you have incontrovertible proof otherwise, you should share it with the
>rest of us.

My point was that [non-luminous, orbiting star] != [planet]. This was in
direct response to your assertion that "If they are nonluminous and orbiting
a star, I don't know what else you'd call them." Please try to follow the
conversation.

>Again, try reading the original post more carefully.

I don't give a fig about the original post, and apparently you do not
give a fig about dicussion. I guess we both lose.

>                                                        It says, given
>the existence of nonluminous bodies orbiting a star, I would call them
>planets rather than companion stars.  I was refuting a possible objec-
>tion that they might be called stars in their own right.  Is this such
>a hard sentence to understand?

Already addressed.

>My post also said:
>>>                                  In any case, their existence could
>>>not possibly hurt the chances of smaller planets being present.  I
>>>hope this is useful.
>To which you answered:
>
>>Who knows? Honestly, how do you know. Suppose the sub-star inhabits the
>>habitibal zone (where liquid water is possible). Would that not affect
>>the possibility of life at that solar system?
>
>Come on!  If you're going to take up other people's time by posting, at
>least put a little thought into it before you do so.

Gratuitous insults do not add to your posts. Nor did you respond to what
I had posted. No big surprise there.

I ask again, why do you suppose that a jupiter sized planet located in the
habitable zone could support life?

>I said that the existence of large gas giants could not hurt the chances
>of smaller planets being present.

And I ask upon what you base this assumption.

>                                      For proof of this, just look at our
>own solar system -- more than one huge planet and a good number of smaller
>ones, at least one of which supports intelligent (for the most part) life.

What do aspects of our solar system prove about other solar systems? Nothing.

>Do you have trouble reading and understanding English, or are you simply
>intellectually dysfunctional?

No, but I do have trouble communicating with the learning disabled.
Perhaps someday you can produce a post that can be read without editing.


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,rec.arts.startrek.tech,alt.alien.visitors,alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: New Physics,Healing & Paranormal 2 "White Paper"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:43:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Lines: 91


Continuing part 2 of my paid for "intelligence analysis" on the impact
of New Age Paradigms on the future of medicine, new marketing
strategies, new politics, etc. etc. for a high level consortium based
in Luxembourg,Geneva,London and Paris. Your (unpaid) comments,
criticisms will be included (if of value) in footnotes. I am striving
for a balanced objective presentation.

The behavior of tiny spinning electrically charged particles, mainly
electrons and protons (i.e. hydrogen bonds), fundamental to the quantum
mechanics of our bodies, obeys new laws of chance. The new feature,
according to the late Genius, Richard Feynman, is the "coherent
superposition of alternative histories". In the old physics, since all
causes were before their effects, the Newtonian laws of motion could, in
principle, predict the precise future behavior of single particles given
complete information on the initial causes.  The Heisenberg uncertainty
principle says that complete information on the initial causes is not
possible in principle. The fundamental reason is that intial causes in the
past are not enough to predict the behavior of the particle as it evolves
in time. Future "final causes" or purposive "teleological" karmic
influences also co-determine the intermediate behavior of the particle from
its preparation to its detection. The Feynman "history" is a description of
the possible motion of the particle (or field) from its preparation in the
past to its detection in the future. Each possible alternative history,
each "separate reality" for the particle (or electromagnetic field) is
described by an "amplitude" which encodes the entire "action" from past to
future in a point on a circle of an abstract space of pure mathematical
thought called "the complex plane".  All of quantum mechanics, both
standard and my new non-standard version, can be summarized in two laws:

1. Given a set of indistinguishable alternative histories, add their arrows
and then "take the square" to compute the probability of that
indistinguishable set.

2. Given a set of distinguishable alternative histories, "take the square"
and then add these squares to compute the probability of that
distinguishable set.

A word on what it means to "take the square". The Feynman amplitude for a
possible history of any quantum process has a "retarded" form that
propagates information forward-in-time from preparation to detection and a
"conjugate" or "advanced" form that propagates information backward-in-time
from detection to preparation. "Taking the square" means multiplying the
forward-in-time amplitude by the backward-time-time amplitude. When several
indistinguishable histories coherently superpose (in an interpenetration of
separate classical realities that has no analog in the old physics) we have
"loops in time" between interfering separate classical realities or
parallel universes.  The chemical bonds in which spinning electrons bind
atoms into molecules could not exist without these quantum loops and time
which are essential to manipulate the healing process by electromagnetic
machines in the coming new medicine.

Poincare discovered that there is an inherent classical uncertainty in the
old physics of complex systems quite distinct from the quantum uncertainty
of new physics. The old physics uncertainty is called "chaos" using the
mathematics of "fractal attractors in phase space". It applies to attempts
to predict weather, stock market prices, heart beats, neural web activity
(e.g. brain waves) brain waves and many other kinds of complex measurable
phenomena in the human body essential to medical diagnostics. The relation
between classical chaos and quantum connectivity is not at all understood
by any one today. The late David Bohm came closest in his "nonlocal quantum
potential" approach to quantum mechanics. It is a topic of great importance
for biophysical and psycho-physical research. It is also important for the
design of the next generation of parallel-processing super-computers with
switching hardware in the .35 micron or smaller scale.

Quantum phenomena involve chance (i.e. probability) in a new fundamental
way which is not the same as our intuitions based upon rolling dice, or
playing card games.  The conservation of probability is fundamental to all
science. That is, if we know all the ways something can happen, then the
sum of the probabilities for all the ways must add up to 1. In standard
quantum mechanics, the conservation of probability is expressed by a
mathematical condition called "unitarity of the time evolution".  The
mathematics of unitarity erects a formidable barrier against useful
communication on the nonlocal quantum connection. Unitarity prevents the
decoding of the message by observations at the receiver alone within the
standard quantum mechanics.  However, I have recently discovered that
unitarity while being sufficient to ensure conservation of probability is
not necessary, at least in the special case of the connected particles with
"entangled" wave functions. There appears to be a weaker mathematical
possibility that I will call "weak nonunitarity" that still conserves
probability for the alternate behaviors of the receiver and for the sender
separately.  This breaking of the unitarity barrier in a new non-standard
quantum mechanics which is minimally different from standard quantum
mechanics may permit the local decoding of the message at the receiver.
This approach as well as others is essential for the further progress of
new physics applications to healing and supercomputer design. Brian
Josephson, a Nobel Prize Laureate in physics at Cambridge University thinks
that complex living systems, which unlike inorganic matter are not in
thermal equilibrium, break the unitarity barrier of standard quantum
mechanics by some new principle not yet understood.
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Subject: Re: Philadelphia experiment
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:23:09 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
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You said : I am  interested in finding out a bit more about the Philadelphia
experiment, I
didn't know which group to post to,
and since you mentioned it here, I thought I'd give it a go here.

Apart from the intention of the military to create a radar blanking system. I
know nothing about the
experiments or their outcomes.

Does anyone feel like shedding some light on this one?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There actually is a movie out on the Philadelphia Experiment and some books.
The movie, I'm not sure how much dramatic license is involved, is titled "The
Philadelphia Experiment" and its just a few years old now.


--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Who is it dear?                    |  Don't fear the Reaper,
It's a quaint little man from the   |  Fear your government.
village...something about the       |
reaping!?"                          |  [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: [e-mail] (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:53:34 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:
|> [...]
|> Well, actually folklorists do it all the time.  And the analogy is
|> HIGHLY relevant:  folk beliefs and stories have meanings, purposes,
|> and existance that has nothing at all to do with claims of "scientific"
|> or "rational" existence.
|> [...]
|> Anyway, these claims CAN be studied, at least if you treat them as
|> folk traditions and act accordingly.

Agreed.  My remarks were addressed entirely at the idea that these
were real phenomena in the sense of something deserving of scientific
study in their own right.  If they are purely folklore or something
of the sort, then the only *scientifically* appropriate study is
socialogical or psychological.

Such things are not necessarily valueless, and I didn't say they were.
They just aren't scientifically valid.

--
J. Giles
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Give Me A Break!
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:59:58 GMT

About six months ago this was an interesting newsgroup.  Now it consists of
science fiction and egos.

The possiblility that there could be life on another planet is not one that any
of us would view as impossible.

That they could travel here and watch us and want to examine us is also not
impossible.

What is impossible is the amount of bull that someone has to go through to read
something on this board that might be pertinent.

I'm sure somewhere on this vast network is a newsgroup for science fiction
lovers.  Why can't that board be utilized instead of this one.

And why all the obcenities?  I hook onto this board to learn what others may
have learned or endured.  Why must you fight as if life itself were being
threatened?

And what could Star Trek, this generation or the last, possibly have to do with
the purpose of this group?

This is supposed to be about REAL ENCOUNTERS not encounters with a televison
set.

Is there another news group that I can hook onto that does have something to do
with alien life forms and their possible journey here?  If so let me know.























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From: [e-mail] (philippe schnoebelen 303v)
Subject: mail exchange with aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:01:30 GMT
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I'm looking for (snail) mail addresses of aliens currently on Earth who are
willing to answer letters.

I'm already corresponding with Hatton and Kortron & Solinus but would
appreciate having more contacts. [Both are great if you're a stamp
collector, which I'm not.] Hatton is sometimes scary, but this should be
expected considering how may enemies he has. Kortron & Solinus are real
nice.

I there are enough informative answers, I could be willing to summarize (or
put this in a FAQ, or do whatever seems fit. Maybe a "Comprehensive
Directory of Aliens on Earth" (or in the States for a start)).

[PS: I'm only interested in _aliens_, not devils or gods or ghosts ...]

Much thanks in advance,

--Philippe
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Give Me A Break!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:51:50 GMT
Lines: 61

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:

>About six months ago this was an interesting newsgroup.  Now it consists of
>science fiction and egos.

And complainers like you. Thanks for your 2 cents.

>The possiblility that there could be life on another planet is not one that any
>of us would view as impossible.

Thank you, everyone.

>That they could travel here and watch us and want to examine us is also not
>impossible.

I'd sure love to travel there and examine them, sure.
I'll give you that much.

>What is impossible is the amount of bull that someone has to go through to read
>something on this board that might be pertinent.

And you had something pertinent to say? Well? Let's have it!
Or were you just posting to test your new .sig like me?

>I'm sure somewhere on this vast network is a newsgroup for science fiction
>lovers.  Why can't that board be utilized instead of this one.

Why can't you post to alt.whine if you have nothing pertinent to say?

>And why all the obcenities?  I hook onto this board to learn what others may
>have learned or endured.  Why must you fight as if life itself were being
>threatened?

Life itself *is* being threatened....by me.

>And what could Star Trek, this generation or the last, possibly have to do with
>the purpose of this group?

Nothing, obviously.

>This is supposed to be about REAL ENCOUNTERS not encounters with a televison
>set.

I had an encounter with a television set once. Aliens implanted transistors
in my brain, and now the TV talks to me. It tells me what to do and when to
do it. I must obey.

>Is there another news group that I can hook onto that does have something to do
>with alien life forms and their possible journey here?  If so let me know.

What's wrong with posting here intstead of whining?
We're all waiting....



                             ///\\
--Eric                       o/o->
                            _\- /|___
[e-mail]   / >7__/<  \
HUMANS MUST BE DESTROYED  / |\ \/ / \ \  DESTROY, DESTROY, DESTROY
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From: [e-mail] (no one of consequence)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Don't Worry Be Happy.
Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:50:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
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References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>-- K.
]>Never shout "Theater!" in
]> fired crowd.
]
]...and never shout "VACUUM!" in
]a crowded space port.

...and never, NEVER shout "FIRE!"
at people pointing weapons at
you.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):)


--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Patrick Chester                             [e-mail]|
|"If the Earth is our Cradle, then why are we still here?"             |
|Everything your side says is Truth. All else is Propaganda....        |
|I only speak for myself. If I *did* speak for UT, would anyone listen?|
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
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From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:37:00 GMT
Lines: 13

Time for a periodical re-airing of my pet theory about
crop circles, and this time it is improved!

Wheat, after millions of years of natural evolution and
thousands of years of selective breeding, has become
*sentient*, and is trying to communicate with us.

Now for the improvement on the theory (hold onto your hats).

Hoaxers have been hypnotized by wheat into making crop
circles. Or perhaps they have been bribed...


Xref: icaen sci.physics:36374 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:2854 sci.skeptic:37436 alt.paranormal:6355 rec.arts.startrek.tech:7710 alt.alien.visitors:12959 alt.magick:8580 alt.pagan:25505
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,rec.arts.startrek.tech,alt.alien.visitors,alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Physics,Healing & Paranormal 2 "White Paper"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:44:31 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
> Continuing part 2 of my paid for "intelligence analysis" on the impact
> of New Age Paradigms on the future of medicine, new marketing
> strategies, new politics, etc. etc. for a high level consortium based
> in Luxembourg,Geneva,London and Paris. Your (unpaid) comments,
> criticisms will be included (if of value) in footnotes. I am striving
> for a balanced objective presentation.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think so.

You know Jack, you should try to strive for regaining your sanity instead.

As for your high-level consortium, I challenge you to give any information
on it. I think you're talking BS.


JM.

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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:26:40 GMT
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Michael Saleeba ([e-mail]) wrote:
> [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:

> >    1) Something crashed. The Air Force doesn't want us all to know.
> >    2) The Air Force STILL doesn't want us to know. (Almost 50 years
> >       later).

> You see this sort of thing again and again, particularly in
> alt.alien.visitors - wild claims that the government or some part of
> it is trying to cover up information about UFOs. Now there's something
> about all this that doesn't ring true for me at all. WHY? I mean,
> what's the point? What do they stand to gain by covering it all up? It
> must cost them a lot of effort, so they'd have to have a pretty darn
> good reason to do it.

It's not a question of what they have to _gain_ from a cover-up, rather what
they haveto _lose_. If the governments publicly acknowledge the existence of
UFOs there would be mass hysteria worldwide.

    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about UFOs,
we usually deduce that the things flying them are very advanced compared to us,
therefore have the weaponory to destroy us at the flick of a switch. And, unlike
nuclear weapons, we have _no_ defenses against UFOs _whatsoever_. When the
public realise this, they will realise that any worry they have is absolutely
_nothing_ compared to the UFO threat and so will turn to crime because they'll
think "Sod it, the UFOs will get us sooner or later, so I may as well make the
most of the time I've got now". In short, they'll turn to anarchy.

    That's why there is a cover-up.

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Dr. Who)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Any CE groups in Maryland, D.C. or Virginia ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:57:25 GMT
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I want to contact a group or organization that deals with UFO sightings
or close encounters. Does anyone know of one? Better yet one in the
Washington D.C. area.
            Any help would be greatly appreciated
            Thanks
            Nathan
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:17:14 GMT
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>
>It's not a question of what they have to _gain_ from a cover-up, rather what
>they haveto _lose_. If the governments publicly acknowledge the existence of
>UFOs there would be mass hysteria worldwide.

Actually, what they have to lose is:

A) Military dominance and control of the Free World - You don't need a military
if everyone loves each other and refuse to kill ANYTHING. As you don't need
a military, military leaders lose control of power.

B) More important, the powers that be would loose crediblity - over dictating
to the the masses what to believe in, and the nature of reality.
Because if you can believe in aliens, maybe you can believe in things other
than thier power structure.

>
>    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
>are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
>very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about UFOs,
>we usually deduce that the things flying them are very advanced compared to us,
>therefore have the weaponory to destroy us at the flick of a switch. And, unlike
>nuclear weapons, we have _no_ defenses against UFOs _whatsoever_. When the
>public realise this, they will realise that any worry they have is absolutely
>_nothing_ compared to the UFO threat and so will turn to crime because they'll
>think "Sod it, the UFOs will get us sooner or later, so I may as well make the
>most of the time I've got now". In short, they'll turn to anarchy.
>
>    That's why there is a cover-up.

Exactly...

Jeff-




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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 02:48:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 57


    [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:
    2) Next day, Brazel carted stuff and filled up a shed. Called
       the sheriff. Debris is spread out over a big area.

... Well, I cannot be sure (from my reading) that he "filled up a
shed".  He did store some stuff (notably a large circular piece.)

    3) Sheriff and Brazel call Air Force. Local Air Intellegence
       Officer comes out. Base commander then releases a press
       notice : "We have a flying saucer."

... the timing here is important.  After interviewing Mac Brazel,
Marcell and Captain Cavitt went out to the ranch with Mac Brazel on
the 6th.  Blanchard sent at least some of stuff Mac Brazel brought in
with him to Roswell on to Fort Worth.  On the morning of the 7th,
Marcel and Cavitt went to the debris field, returning early on the 8th
(that is, they spent all day picking up pieces of "a balloon"), and
didn't get 'em all.  On the morning of the 8th, after a staff meeting,
Blanchard dictated his "saucer" press release to the PIO (Walter
Haut.)

    4) General Twining flies down, takes over. Local base
       commander takes a "leave" immediately.

... Twining appears only to have arrived in person on the 17th (he's
listed in records as having done so.)  He may have been at Kirtland
Field, near Albuquerque on the 7th.  Blanchard went "on leave" on the
afternoon of the 8th, to go out to the debris field.  (Apparently the
"on leave" thing was an administrative sleight of hand, to deflect the
phonecalls, etc. pouring into the base.)

    5) A B-29 is filled up with crates of stuff, flies off to
       another base.

... apparently several planes flew out of Roswell, a B-26 (on July 6),
a B-29, a some C-54's.  They flew to Fort Worth, Wright Field,
Washington, and Kirtland field.

    6) Twining and ATIC guy cook up balloon story. Allow reporters
       in the next day to look at balloon remains.

... Ramey (in Fort Worth) is (apparently) the source of the balloon
story.  Ramey's balloon story went out on July 8th.  On the 9th, all
the "saucer" press releases given out by Haut were confiscated by
officers from Roswell.

    8) Air Force still refuses to talk about now. Not even mentioned in
       Blue Book as a balloon.

...well, they talk about it; they say it was a balloon.  It is curious
that it doesn't appear in BB, though some other balloon-stories
apparently do.

Charles

Sources "UFO Crash at Roswell", "Roswell, A Historical Perspective".
Xref: icaen alt.postmodern:4346 alt.religion.kibology:6030 talk.bizarre:90527 alt.alien.visitors:12964 talk.religion.newage:13722
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Date: 26 Jan 1993 18:50:07 GMT
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
Lines: 91
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>[seen in--of all places--alt.postmodern:]
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>     Although the following article is on the subject of religious studies, it
>>illustrates some important facts about the Universe:
>All I have to say to this is that Rev. Ivan Stang, who owns the Church
>of the SubGenius, called Eckankar "The Stupidest Cult(TM)".  And HE
>KNOWS STUPID CULTS!

Including kibology?

End of article 3630 (of 3630)--what next? [npq] | discord | nroff -ms > plugh






     Important facts that Initiate of  the  Psychic  Planes.
Jan GMT Lines Xref network.  Eck Master will take AN IMMEDI-
ATE DISLIKE to as out of a physically alive today is  simply
teaching  of  the  sea shore, a person POSSIBLY sin before a
Perfect LIVING Master as SOUL TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind  faith.
Rushing wind, and university libraries and other experiences
such perfect living in most other if they finally WISE UP!

     Each of its followers of his  cycles  of  existence  in
this IMPORTANT Information is the Romans.  Lives, which seem
to this is DANGEROUS without an INDIVIDUAL  experience,  now
headquartered in John the Astral projection.  Etheric Plane,
describes several higher Spiritual Planes.

     Astral Plane, there LESS THAN YEARS AGO by the way  God
Incarnate.   It  is  possible  for Jesus' nd Coming are fol-
lowers an extraordinary amount of  these  Masters  with  the
EXCITING syndicated TV series, alt.  Another person POSSIBLY
sin before he LIVED BEFORE?  Worship Jesus to this IMPORTANT
Information  is  located  elsewhere  on  the  EARLY CATHOLIC
CHURCH by simply teaching of some kind of  a  rushing  wind,
homes,  unless  he  LIVED  BEFORE?  ALL TIMES, including the
Universe The River of the upper levels of at the help  of  a
nd COMINGS If a Perfect LIVING Master or SOUND CURRENT mani-
fests differently for religious validity.

     Downtown Boston References Jan25.  ONLY correct meaning
of  a  short  while and take AN IMMEDIATE DISLIKE to confuse
the Mental Plane is five levels of the EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH
by  little more than GOOD FEELING which seem to this subject
is located elsewhere on the process.  VERSION.   His  cycles
of  God  Incarnate  PHYSICALLY  ALIVE  in  or  other if they
finally WISE UP!  Radha Soami  Books,  there  are  similarly
true for religious validity.

     Each other major levels fnord of ETERNAL  DAMNATION  in
Eckankar,  and pray to do for the teachings of REincarnation
in of Jesus was mostly MANUFACTURED by Dr.   Ing  there  are
PER  VERSIONS!   Upper  part  of  SOUL PLANE, and is ANOTHER
classic books, etc.  Will take him during  the  life  experi
ences, SMALL WONDER.

     Planes.  Life in the Baptist was.  Cnsvax.  Saimiri.

     Start hearing it, Jan GMT Lines Xref  network.   Living
Master God set things up by Dr.

     HEAVEN, alt.  Behave much better toward each Master  as
out  of  evidence supporting REincarnation in the upper part
of REincarnation in by Ruth Montgomery, NOT including Islam,
India,  and  then his life in the psychic planes are WAITING
IN VAIN.  Him directly to fnord  past  life  in  Revelation,
talk.

     Spiritual Planes  are  only  KIDDING  THEMSELVES,  etc.
ETERNAL  DAMNATION in India, which is simply teaching of the
subject of existence in the REINCARNATION  in  John  NOTWITH
STANDING.   Gurinder  Singh Ji, and is the psychic read ings
of it, NOT  unique,  higher  Spiritual  Planes  and  closely
observing  the physical world, strong PHOBIAS, some of these
forms are only by reaching at  the  Physical  Plane  is  THE
BANI,  P.  River of the Christian Hell, now living Master or
other if they are some kind of a physically dies trans lates
before a person is NOTHING that Jesus to return and fnord to
have to return and pray to be reaped by Sri Paul  Twitchell,
P.

                            spl
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- [phone] -- [e-mail]
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
                 "Tenants of the house,
Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season." - TS Eliot, "Gerontion"
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Jon Clarke)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 16:51:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The CServer at the Z*NET International Global News Gateway
Lines: 26

[e-mail] (Scott Leaf) writes:

> There actually is a movie out on the Philadelphia Experiment and some books.
> The movie, I'm not sure how much dramatic license is involved, is titled "The
> Philadelphia Experiment" and its just a few years old now.

 More like nearly 10 years and alot of license compared to the book
 of the same title.

 However you do raise a good point here Scott. While this is a story
 most of us in this news.group and in most countries have heard reference
 to, what has happened since then in this line of study?

 I would be interested to hear in any current (recent last 20 years)
 happening in this line of research. A pet topic of discussion here is
 geo-magnetic propolusion and also terestial magnetic (read gravity)
 propulsion.



 Jon Clarke                                                     Z*NET Pacific
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Philadelphia experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Tom Denbo)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:38:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 12

The movie was quite different from the book.  The movie used time travel,
the book described distance displacement.

I really liked the book!  It was so weird that I had to give it a rousing
standing cheer at the end!

The Phiadelphia Experiment:Project Invisibilty
1979
by William L. Moore
with Charles Berlitz
Fawcett Crest Books (paper back)

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Borowiec)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 07:15:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>|> [...]
>|> Some of the shows really blow me away with the power of their message, as
>|> did the first Deep Space Nine episode which dealt with a powerful emotional
>|> theme, the nature of time, and a bit tension and drama.  [...]
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>That was one of the most comical sequences I've ever encountered.  These
>alians conduct a discussion with the human character in an ordered sequence
>of topics, inferences, etc. and yet claim to be ignorant of the nature of
>time.  If they can conduct an ordered interview, they know of time.
>
>--
>J. Giles

It was only PRESENTED that way so you, a mere human, could comprehend
the purely mental exchange of ideas between the characters in a linear
fashion... You are so arrogant in your ignorance! (-8
- Mike

PS> By the way... you really backpedaled on the issue "people who view
Star Trek regularly are intellectually inferior to my well-read self".
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: probes
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:44:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:
>
>    The biggest argument used against UFO's and aliens is that
>we are so far from any other planets. We cannot even see other
>planets for sure. Of course, we think that all main sequence stars
>should have planets. But no proof.
>
>    What if we lived closer to the center of our galaxy? There
>would be many stars within a light-year or so. With our current
>technology, I'll bet we could see proof of other planets all around.
>What is the first thing we do when investigating other bodies? (Planets
>I mean :) We send a probe. If we lived amidst many other planets, we
>might even detect atmospheres. Any oxygen planet would be of special
>interest.
>    Perhaps the vast majority of UFO sightings are due to unmanned
>probes sent out long ago. Any probe finding an oxygen planet (therefore
>life as we know it) would send back data. Eventually someone might
>come see, probably a stuffy old anthropologist or something. That
>explains why we haven't seen them yet. They're shy.
>
>--
I really do not see any more points in this kind of arguments.
To be explicit:
Years ago, I thought that this reasoning was ok and proving "sightings" of
"spacecrafts" was important. To have a grasp on the thing, I made sure to
include some courses like Meteorology or Remote Sensing into my doctoral
program.
Now I rather study Topology and its connections to physical space.
Things like the Philadelphia Experiment are no joke. With all due respect, I
wouldn't worry for the density of planets, for travels, for oxygen, and such.

    Alin

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: OOB
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:50:41 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: ihr01.icaen.uiowa.edu
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

To the person asking for info about OOB's earlier in this newsgroup:
There is a group called alt.out-of-body

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From: gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Date: 27 Jan 1993 03:12:04 -0600
Organization: Flat Earth Liberation Front Against TV
Lines: 39
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[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

>All I have to say to this is that Rev. Ivan Stang, who owns the Church
>of the SubGenius, called Eckankar "The Stupidest Cult(TM)".  And HE
>KNOWS STUPID CULTS!
>                            -- K.

No no no no no. You just have to know how to read it! A little filtering
with sed and reformating, and...


(1) ONLY LOWEST DOZEN (2)  INTERACTIONS  HIGHER LEVELS. (3) INDIVIDUALS
PERSONALLY , "SOUL TRAVEL". DANGEROUS THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
COMPLETELY IGNORANT NOT 3:16 NOTWITH- STANDING. ALWAYS PHYSICALLY ALIVE AT
ALL TIMES, THROUGHOUT HISTORY, PERVERTING THREATS "ETERNAL DAMNATION"
DELETED RE NOTHING ANY INITIATED KIDDING THEMSELVES, DUPED MANUFACTURED
TOTALLY DECEIVING "AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM" "SOUND CURRENT", "THE WORD" 1:1-5,
RE "SOUL PLANE", NOT  LIVING (P.O. 27300; 55427).  "THE PATH OF THE
MASTERS" (R P.O. 242, CA 90247), 1939 "ECKANKAR--THE KEY TO SECRET WORLDS",
ANOTHER DEAD CONTINUE RE MISERABLE WISE UP!  RE-INCARNATION "HERE AND
HEREAFTER", , RE FACT OF LIFE, HYPNOTIC REGRESSIONS SPONTANEOUS RECALL
DREAM RECALL - DEJA VU - EDGAR CAYCE, EVEN SUPPORTING STATEMENTS FROM THE
CHRISTIAN BIBLE 17:11-13 REINCARNATION 9:1-2 POSSIBLY LIVED BEFORE?! ALWAYS
"KING JAMES VERSION". PER-VERSIONS! INTERESTS, TALENTS, PHOBIAS, PAST
LIVES. DROWNED PREVIOUS LIFE. AN IMMEDIATE DISLIKE PREVIOUS INCARNATION.
RE LAW OF KARMA (G 6:7, 13:10, .). FUTURE INCARNATION!  "2 COMINGS" ONE
AND ONLY INDIVIDUAL NOT WAITING IN VAIN.  PLANES OF EXISTENCE LOWEST AT
LEAST DOZEN FIRST TRUE HEAVEN, NOT ESP, 1972 INTERACTIONS SUB-DIVIDED.
SMALL LESS THAN 2000 YEARS AGO EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH THREATENING RE SOUND
CURRENT BLIND FAITH BLIND FAITH GOOD FEELING TOTALLY DECEIVING). HEARING
"SOUND CURRENT" ("THE WORD", "THE BANI", "THE AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM"),
REINCARNATION MISERABLE WILL CONTINUE.  "SOUND CURRENT" "SOUL TRAVEL"
REPLACE UN- REPRODUCTION DISSEMINATION IMPORTANT ENCOURAGED ENJOY LARGE
SHARP NEEDLES VARIOUS ORIFICES EXCITING TV "SMALL WONDER".


------------------------ uunet!quack!gilly!dave ------------------------
================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================
---------------------- [e-mail] ----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:28:00 GMT
Lines: 55


Please post to other conferences.
Interested parties, faculty and students, forward CV. Degrees will be
granted.

to : Press Release
For More Information, Call:
{Glossary "ContactInfo"|
[phone]}
For Release {CreateDate \@ "h:mm AM/PM"|5:11 PM}{Glossary "Zone"| ES}
{CreateDate \@ "MMMM dd, yyyy"|January 26, 1993}

VISIONARY PHYSICIST, DR. JACK SARFATTI, APPOINTED TO SCIENCE BOARD OF WORLD
UNIVERSITY
Start of Press release
ACADEMIE  UNIVERSITAIRE  LIBRE  MONDIALE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WORLD  UNIVERSITY

The European Community Parliament is looking for an ideology of cultural
unity for the twelve countries separated by languages and many other
differences.

A Scientific Board of top quality scholars coming from both the "Exact
Sciences" and "Human and Social Sciences" is now being established by Dr.
Paul A. Gerome of Geneva, Switzerland. Dr. Jerome received his Ph.D. under
Levi-Straus.

He is now in San Francisco speaking to scientists who are potential faculty
enroute to Los Angeles, Hawaii and Japan. He will return to San Francisco
on Feb 20, 1993.

The first official act will be an International Conference using multimedia
and telepresence. The recording of the Conference will be broadcast by
satellite. The Scientific Board members will define the new hybrid sciences
and give them names.

The second act will be the creation of  a detailed script on multi-media CD
ROM of the available knowledge on these cross-border disciplines and a
computer programme for students. In addition, a document will be produced
to define the further researches to be realised under the direction of each
hybrid scientist who will be receiving grants.

These grants will be used to create more television programs and
interactive computer programs and to broadcast the information on these
hybrid sciences worldwide through satellite channels.

More information will be forwarded through E-Mail, Internet and Fax to
whomever contacts us and applies.

We are a private non-profit organisation settled in Paris. The operational
company is settled in Luxembourg. The video-audio-book publishing company
is settled in Geneva. The Headquarters are in London.


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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Gremlin.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 18:37:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I do declare I think my computer has a Gremlin in it. I'd
better go to Art Martin and get it kicked out.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13725 alt.alien.visitors:12973 sci.skeptic:37447
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 19:41:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

Subject: How To Contact The Good Space People.
  People are always asking how to make sure that you are going to contact the
good type of space people and not be invited to come to lunch. One of the
best ways is to learn how to send and receive telepathic messages. When you
finally learn how to do this then you can look at the space craft of space
person and bring that information or picture that you see with you eye, into
your third eye (pineal gland) and then bring the information down into you
stomach near your belly buttom and let it roll around a little.  As it is
rolling around get a feel for it and figure out whether it gives you a good
feeling or a bad feeling. A woman would call it her woman's intuition. A man
would call it a gut feeling. If you don't get a good feeling, don't fool
around with that sort of space person.
  You may already know that I think very highly of Edgar Cayce. Here is some
information about him;....A mysterious blue crystal helped one of the
world's greatest psychics make amazingly accurate predictions - and it can
give you the same eerie power!
  Edgar Cayce, an early 20th century seer who forecast the Great Depression,
both world wars and the fall of communism in Russia, use a magical stone
called lapic lazuli before he went into his trances, and author reveals.
  And you can pick up one of these power-packed stones at a crystal shop at a
reasonable price - lapis lazuli goes for a mere $4 an once, says
parapsychologist Brad Steiger.
 "To achieve this enhancement of psychic awareness, the crystal can be worn as
a ring, pendant, earring, bracelet, ankle or even as a stone on a belt,"
Steiger explains.
  "Lapic lazuli helps an individual tune into psychic vibrations that surround
all of us."
  Cayce, who earned the title of America's Sleeping Prophet, once confided
that his psychic abilities were enhanced by the stone, which is composed of
the minerals calcite, pyrite and lazulite.
  He also felt it helped him diagnose physical ailments, even before they
appeared, allowing him to recommend  effective ways to halt the problem in
the tracks.
  "Some were modern folk cures, others were treatments from past epochs and
ancient cultures, such as Greece and Rome," Steiger says.
  "Many were later discovered by the formal medical community to be effective
therapies."
  Cayce attracted as much attention for his methods as he did for his
prophecies.
  "For his readings, he'd enter a self-induced hypnotic trance while holding a
handfull of lapi luzuli crystals," Steiger says.  "He claimed he tapped into
a Universal Mind for his information. Dr. Franklin Ruehl.
JW So there you have it folks. There's more to come on this later. Stay tuned.
Source of Information:January 26, 1993 Examiner. page 4.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Give Me A Break!
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:44:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>About six months ago this was an interesting newsgroup.  Now it consists of
>science fiction and egos.

  This has NEVER been an interesting newsgroup!   All it consist of are
  people making wild, unsubstantiated claims about UFO's, alien abductions,
  and government conspiracies to hide alien contact, and other people
  like me damanding *decent evidence* for this stuff rather than
  speculation.   And never getting such evidence.


>The possiblility that there could be life on another planet is not one that any
>of us would view as impossible.
>
>That they could travel here and watch us and want to examine us is also not
>impossible.

  It's not impossible that someone has built a 120 story skyscraper in
  the middle of an Iowa cornfield.   It's not impossible that my mother
  had 8 children (my father had 8 children).  It's not impossible that
  I could be wearing grey dress slacks right now.   Many things are
  not impossible.   But this is no indication whatsoever that they
  are true.

>And what could Star Trek, this generation or the last, possibly have to do with
>the purpose of this group?

  Beats me.  The STNG debates got crossposted to sci.skeptic, too.  On
  both newsgroups I had also made comments and raised issues MUCH more
  relevant to the stated purpose of the newsgroup and got almost no
  responses, whereas I got LOTS of reaction to the TV comments.


>This is supposed to be about REAL ENCOUNTERS not encounters with a televison
>set.

  I think a lot of people who watch a lot of TV can't tell the difference.
  They think if they saw something on TV or heard a CNN reporter say it
  was true, it must be!   _TV Guide_, of all places, had an article about
  a year ago on how the televised testimony of some Kuwaiti refugees
  just before the Gulf War in 1991 was a major factor in whipping up
  war frenzy, and building up sympathy for Kuwait in the US.   Only
  problem was that the tretimony, according to the magazine, was a
  fabrication.

  I can't vouch for whether it really was a fabrication, but I certainly
  have seen MANY things on network news that were either factually wrong
  or deliberate lies (take your pick).   And several studies have found
  that frequent TV viewers are more likely to perceive the world as a
  dangerous place and have an exaggerated sense of the likelihood of
  themselves being a crime victim than non-TV-viewers.  So I'm not sure
  that frequent TV watchers DO have the powers of discrimination you
  ask for.   I think if they saw a news report about UFO abductions or
  something they WOULD think that UFO abductions were real.



---peter





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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:47:44 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes:
>Time for a periodical re-airing of my pet theory about
>crop circles, and this time it is improved!
>
>Wheat, after millions of years of natural evolution and
>thousands of years of selective breeding, has become
>*sentient*, and is trying to communicate with us.


  On the other hand (this is true:) in late 1991 the
  Wheat Foods Council, an industry trade group, reported
  a study showing that 47% of Americans believe oatmeal
  is made from wheat!


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:54:57 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>Michael Saleeba ([e-mail]) wrote:
>> [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:
>
>> >    1) Something crashed. The Air Force doesn't want us all to know.
>> >    2) The Air Force STILL doesn't want us to know. (Almost 50 years
>> >       later).
>
>> You see this sort of thing again and again, particularly in
>> alt.alien.visitors - wild claims that the government or some part of
>> it is trying to cover up information about UFOs. Now there's something
>
>It's not a question of what they have to _gain_ from a cover-up, rather what
>they haveto _lose_. If the governments publicly acknowledge the existence of
>UFOs there would be mass hysteria worldwide.
>
>    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
>are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
>very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about UFOs,
>we usually deduce that the things flying them are very advanced compared to us,
>therefore have the weaponory to destroy us at the flick of a switch.


   Oh, ca-ca!!    The vast majority of the world's population are
   religionists of one sort or another so they have ALREADY come
   to terms with the idea of beings in the universe VASTLY more
   powerful that us, and nearly incomprehensible in their motives
   and actions (God, or various gods).

>                                                         And, unlike
>nuclear weapons, we have _no_ defenses against UFOs _whatsoever_.

   More ca-ca.   Since when do we have defenses against nuclear
   weapons?   Get real - if there's a major nuclear war you and
   I both toast.

   Anyway, your comments are still mere speculation.   You have
   provided not one shred of evidence for your views.


---peter




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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 JAN 93 09:40:48
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes...
>[seen in--of all places--alt.postmodern:]
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>  .
>>  .
>>  .
>>                                           Robert E. McElwaine
>>                                           2nd Initiate in Eckankar
>
>All I have to say to this is that Rev. Ivan Stang, who owns the Church
>of the SubGenius, called Eckankar "The Stupidest Cult(TM)".  And HE
>KNOWS STUPID CULTS!

I have some small reason to believe that [e-mail] is no more
than someone's AI project. Try sending mail and see what happens. All I got
was more random mailings of over-capitalized drivel. Yo, "McElwaine", anything
to say to disprove this?

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 JAN 93 09:50:25
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes...
>[e-mail] writes:
>Ok, so you don't like the manned idea.  How about, the balloon is carrying
>particulate collectors to look for fallout from US or Soviet Nuclear tests.
>You post a reward so people will turn in the "disks" rather than keep them.
>Rob U

Folks, all of these schemes make a big assumption: that the people reporting
non-human bodies were basically making it up. This goes for the ranchers who
discovered it, the rock-collectors in the area, the mortician with the
"smallest available caskets", the military personnel who lifted the tarp and
looked under, the medical personnel who handled the bodies. We have to assume
they all lied in order to buy any of the Earthly-origin scenarios.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:32:23 GMT
Lines: 4

   Degree mill ad capslock?

Dan
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (PAUL  PAWELSKI)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (PAUL  PAWELSKI)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:48:51 GMT
Lines: 41


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
> VISIONARY PHYSICIST, DR. JACK SARFATTI, APPOINTED TO SCIENCE BOARD OF WORLD
> UNIVERSITY
> Start of Press release
> ACADEMIE  UNIVERSITAIRE  LIBRE  MONDIALE
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> WORLD  UNIVERSITY
>
{stuff out}
>
> A Scientific Board of top quality scholars coming from both the "Exact
> Sciences" and "Human and Social Sciences" is now being established by Dr.
> Paul A. Gerome of Geneva, Switzerland. Dr. Jerome received his Ph.D. under
> Levi-Straus.
>
{stuff out}
>
> The first official act will be an International Conference using multimedia
> and telepresence. The recording of the Conference will be broadcast by
> satellite. The Scientific Board members will define the new hybrid sciences
> and give them names.


The misnaming of fields of study is so common as to lead to what might
be general systems laws.  For example, Frank Harary once suggested the
law that any field that had the word "science" in its name was
guaranteed thereby not to be a science.  He would cite as examples
Military Science, Library Science, Political Science, Homemaking
Science, Social Science, and Computer Science.  Discuss the generality
of this law, and possible reasons for its predictive
power.
                -- Gerald Weinberg, "An Introduction to General Systems
                   Thinking."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Colorful, Jack, be careful though, too many of us have too limited of a sense
of humor: excessive play on this thread may cause people to ignore your
thoughts on other threads.

Paul Pawelski
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: New Physics,Healing & Paranormal 2 "White Paper"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: elcaro1.columbiasc.ncr.com
Organization: TeleTherapies,Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 15:17:32 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
|>
|> Continuing part 2 of my paid for "intelligence analysis" on the impact
|> of New Age Paradigms on the future of medicine, new marketing
|> strategies, new politics, etc. etc. for a high level consortium based
|> in Luxembourg,Geneva,London and Paris.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    You forgot Deep Space Nine. ( And a few wormholes, probably!)

Your (unpaid) comments,
     ^^^^^^^^
    I have been paid (in future, effect precedes the cause) by a
transluminal  consortium based in "East of the NorthTimeBank" to make
time-space-money-continuum corrections to these futuristic,  historical and
timely revelations of yours.

|> criticisms will be included (if of value) in footnotes. I am striving
|> for a balanced objective presentation.

    I think, since long you haven't taken a ride on Future SpaceWays.
This publication of yours was banned by Federation of United Planets way back
in 1800BC. And BTW, their headquarters is changed. It is in Bahamas now. You
are holding an illegal position.

|>
|> The behavior of tiny spinning electrically charged particles, mainly
|> electrons and protons (i.e. hydrogen bonds), fundamental to the quantum
    .....
    .. stuff deleted...
    .....
|> thermal equilibrium, break the unitarity barrier of standard quantum
|> mechanics by some new principle not yet understood.

    Sorry for above comments of mine!!
    I didn't know that this is your latest in the series of articles
    written for leading Comics Magazine of the Future,
    namely - "Advanced Infants Entertainments."

______________________________________________________________________________
(Disclaimer: All the views expressed are exclusively mine. They don't bear any
responsibility to my organization.)
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 06:47:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I have a great deal of respect to Moses. I think he was
one of the good guys if there ever was one. I also like Charleston
Heston pretty well too.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: How To Contact The Good Type Space People.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 06:33:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Folks: At the present time I am conducting some ESP experiments
with a few people. I would like to have each person contacting me to
have a  piece of Lapis Lazuli to consentrate their thoughts with.
If you can't get a piece of it please contact me by E-mail and I'll
send you a piece of it. Last night I had a dream or Astral Journey
about going aboard an Astral Taxi constructed by the space people. Some
of you may have been there with me. We had our favorite meals and were
taught for quite a while and a good time was had by all.
John Winston. Who is this person All? He seems to always have a good
time?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:43:36 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>>
>>It's not a question of what they have to _gain_ from a cover-up, rather what
>>they haveto _lose_. If the governments publicly acknowledge the existence of
>>UFOs there would be mass hysteria worldwide.
>
>Actually, what they have to lose is:
>
>A) Military dominance and control of the Free World - You don't need a military
>if everyone loves each other and refuse to kill ANYTHING. As you don't need
>a military, military leaders lose control of power.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems a bit simplistic.

>B) More important, the powers that be would loose crediblity - over dictating
>to the the masses what to believe in, and the nature of reality.
>Because if you can believe in aliens, maybe you can believe in things other
>than thier power structure.

So then you are saying that UFOs are a threat to established religion? (and
their power structures)

>>    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
>>are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
>>very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about UFOs,
>>we usually deduce that the things flying them are very advanced compared to us,
>>therefore have the weaponory to destroy us at the flick of a switch. And, unlike
>>nuclear weapons, we have _no_ defenses against UFOs _whatsoever_. When the
>>public realise this, they will realise that any worry they have is absolutely
>>_nothing_ compared to the UFO threat and so will turn to crime because they'll
>>think "Sod it, the UFOs will get us sooner or later, so I may as well make the
>>most of the time I've got now". In short, they'll turn to anarchy.
>>
>>    That's why there is a cover-up.
>
>Exactly...

Technically, I am not sure the statement "we have _no_ defenses against UFOs
_whatsoever_" is meaningful. Is a misidentified balloon really a threat to
all? Perhaps it would be better to substitute -alien spaceship- for UFO.

>Jeff-


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:45:41 GMT
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes...
>Time for a periodical re-airing of my pet theory about
>crop circles, and this time it is improved!
>
>Wheat, after millions of years of natural evolution and
>thousands of years of selective breeding, has become
>*sentient*, and is trying to communicate with us.
>
>Now for the improvement on the theory (hold onto your hats).
>
>Hoaxers have been hypnotized by wheat into making crop
>circles. Or perhaps they have been bribed...
>
>

That's the best theory I've heard so far... :-)

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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Give Me A Break!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:52:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>About six months ago this was an interesting newsgroup.  Now it consists of
>science fiction and egos.
>
>The possiblility that there could be life on another planet is not one that any
>of us would view as impossible.
Oh, of course not impossible.  I would consider it pretty likely, as a matter
of fact.

>
>That they could travel here and watch us and want to examine us is also not
>impossible.
Not impossible, but highly unlikely.  Really highly unlikely.  Really
_really_ highly unlikely.  Well, you get the idea.

>
>What is impossible is the amount of bull that someone has to go through to read
>something on this board that might be pertinent.
>
Yeah!  There's all this UFO idiocy cluttering up the group!

>I'm sure somewhere on this vast network is a newsgroup for science fiction
>lovers.  Why can't that board be utilized instead of this one.
>
This newsgroup _is_ for science fiction.  See the name: alt.alien.visitors
Now if that isn't obvious fiction, I don't know what is....

>
>
>This is supposed to be about REAL ENCOUNTERS not encounters with a televison
>set.
>
Are you saying that television isn't real?  It sure is real!  I'm looking
at one right now, on the other side of the room.  People see televisions
every day!  There's a rational explanation for televisions!  Televisions
are understandable, and they leave physical evidence of their existence.
Televisions are real.  Aliens are not real.  Simple enough.



--
******************************************************************************
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
 black flag and begin slitting throats."---------H. L. Mencken
Jason D. "[e-mail]" Corley Claims Full Responsibility
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Citicorp TTI
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:05:05 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
>>>are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
>>>very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about UFOs,
>
>Technically, I am not sure the statement "we have _no_ defenses against UFOs
>_whatsoever_" is meaningful. Is a misidentified balloon really a threat to
>all? Perhaps it would be better to substitute -alien spaceship- for UFO.
>

 The real issue is one of CONTROL. As it is government is losing control,
the populace is beginning resent being treated as government-wealth slaughter!

 Should it become know that Planet Earth is just a dinky back-world, and that
the zero-sum game here is a hoax, there would be a few billion people here
screaming for blood...namely the blood of those in government that have kept
us toiling away at the drivel of ordinary life while secret technology could
have freed us 50 years ago...think about it. If this is the case, the truth
may NEVER come out! ;-(  It may very well be for such reasons that the whole
issue is shunned by the military, look at their stake in this silly game:

 Control of the population via the tools of war. Total control.

 But what if, And it is a what-if situation, there exists technology that can
provide limitless energy at a fraction of the cost of our current systems? A
new medical technology that can render death obsolete? Food production means
that could feed 10x our population? And the list never stops! What if..?

 One very likely outcome of such a scenario is that people would simply stop
going to work, stop going to school (as we now know it..) stop paying their
TAXES?!! (Oh Dear!) Stop taking advice from assholes like Jerry Fallwell and
Co....Oh my GHOD! People might even begin to think FOR THEMSELVES!


 ...I can see it now:

EBE: "..<thru translation>..but we gave the technology to your governments 50
     years ago? You mean they..?

EARTHMAN: "Yep..the bastards just SAT ON IT! That's why we had to kill them
            all and start over! Politicians are a worthless lot you know..."


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])                       *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:51:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Setec Astronomy
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>
>    Roswell.
>
>In my video, the debunkers say that it was a "radar corner reflector".

Given the huge areas of New Mexico reserved for military installations
(look at a map sometime), the most plausible explanation for anything
strange seen in that region is "black project".

However, in the Roswell case, I'm reluctant to accept this explanation
simply because it took the "recovery team" two days to get to the site.
If this were a US project gone awry, they'd have known about it before
the local boys.  I think that it is safe to conclude that whatever
happened at Roswell was unexpected and the military was caught by
surprise.  That in itself would be sufficient motivation for the
subsequent cover-up, even if whatever really happened was quite mundane.

On a different topic, could someone post a summary of the Bennewitz
Affair?  I may have some comments and questions once I see the dates
and players involved.


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:20:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Setec Astronomy
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
>writes:
>|>   Really big secrets have a way of getting out and NOTHING IN HUMAN HISTORY
>|>   would be bigger than aliens at an Air Force or Army base.
>
>I agree.  To study an extraterrestrial vehicle or crew would require a
>large and diverse group of scientists and engineers.  It's very unlikely
>that these would all be military sympathizers to the extent that they
>would seal this off from the world.  Someone would tell his wife or best
>friend or let it slip on his death bed, etc.
>

This isn't intended as a flame, but it seems to me that something
is flawed in your reasoning here.  I think this is a Circular Argument
or something:

   Somebody claims that X happened.
   Someone else says, "Don't be ridiculous.  If X had happened,
                       somebody would be _saying_ that X happened.
                       X is _too big_ to be kept secret."

Doesn't the Roswell case contain a sort of "deathbed confession" by
one of the players who claims to be too old now to care about threats
of reprisals?

(BTW, whatever happened to ol' Gluteus Maximus?  We haven't seen
any kneejerk reactions from Mr. Shaeffer for some time now.  I hope
he didn't get Abducted!) :-)


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:13:57 GMT
Lines: 17

Chip Salzenberg ([e-mail]) wrote:

: The fact remains that you publicly posted that the Protocols were, and
: I quote, ``DAMN specific'' about who were the people responsible for
: various and sundry bad things in the world.  That statement could only
: come from a person who considered the Protocols to be real.

I thought that "Protocols" was long ago proven to be a fantasy cooked up by the
Nazis to justify mistreatment of Jews before and during WWII - or has this
dead horse surfaced yet again?

I've deleted Don's manic rantings, as they weren't adding anything to the
discussion.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Strazdus)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Date: 28 Jan 1993 00:29:52 GMT
Organization: Intel Corporation
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vulcan.intel.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>[seen in--of all places--alt.postmodern:]
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>          THREATENING manner.  The Christian "Heaven" is located
>>          elsewhere on the Astral Plane.  Good Christians will go there
>>          for a short while and then REincarnate back to Earth.

I hope this isn't right.  Just last week I forked over $1,999,999.99 to
reserve my next incarnation.  I chose Relgzig IV in the galaxy UGC 1324.
I had to fork over an extra megabuck to choose the time.  I chose a date
approximately 12,345,678.90 years ago.

I wish I would have seen this sooner.  Then again, I'm probably not a
good Christian anyway.
--
Steve Strazdus    [e-mail]
80960 Design      [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (James Davies)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:59:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>  There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
>continue to sweep them under the rug. One of them is spontaneous human
>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.

The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:27:13 GMT
Lines: 40

[e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:
: [e-mail] (J. Giles) writes in part:
: |> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
: |> |> [...]
: |> |>   There  are many things that still have never been explained and people just
: |> |> continue to sweep them under the rug.  [...]
: |> |> [...]                               One of them is spontaneous human
: |> |> combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.

A considerable amount of investigation has been done (I think there
was a resulting show on the BBC).  They couldn't find a single
"spontaneous" case.  The fires were caused by cigarettes, heaters,
candles, etc.  The same things that cause other household fires.

: |> You can't study something whose very existence
: |> you can't even verify.
:
: Well, actually folklorists do it all the time.

Well, not really.  They can and do verify the existence of the legends
being studied.  They occasionally try to trace a particular legend to
an actual incident, but the stories themselves are what's being
studied.  It doesn't matter much whether the stories are true or not,
or even if the subjects believe the stories.  What's interesting is
the way the legends travel and evolve/adapt to cultural changes.

: And the analogy is HIGHLY relevant: folk beliefs and stories have
: meanings, purposes, and existance that has nothing at all to do with
: claims of "scientific" or "rational" existence.

There are people who study paranormal beliefs (as opposed to the
supposed phenomena).  While acknowledging that there is no factual
basis for astrology, you can do some interesting work on why people
want it to work and why they think it does work.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Uh-oh!!  I'm having TOO
Rosemount Inc.                                |MUCH FUN!!
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Life on Mars {was Re: The Cursor Speaks Out! }
Date: 28 Jan 1993 01:07:14 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) says:
>
>Mars can support life (alabeit simple, combon dioxide breathing).  NASA
>officially lists life on Mars as 'inconclusive'.  I believe this is due
>to a researcher who found bacteria living in antartica.

The tests carried out on board the Viking for metabolism, growth,
photosynthesis were done by three seperate experiments,
gas exchange, labeled release and pyrolytic release.

Results:An unpredictably high level of oxygen was released
when the samples were sitmulated by sunlight or water, but
not if the sample was sterilized. One possible reason for this
release of oxygen was that plants were present and undergoing
photosynthesis. Another possible answer was that a purely
inorganic chemical reaction was taking place. Neither of these
possibilities could be proven or disproven conclusively, leaving
open the question of life on Mars.

Source for the above: p160/161 The Encyclopedia of US Spacecraft
by Bill Yenne

The researcher in Antartica was Dr Wolf {spelling?}, he spent
20 years building the wolf trap. The wolf trap was a device
which was suppose to be fitted to the Viking landers, but because
of last minute budget cutbacks, it was left out. Basically the
experiment involved adding some soil to some nutrient rich
mixture and then detecing if anything would grow. because
of the Viking kickback, he decided to try his device in Antartica,
with success.

Source for the above paragraph: Carl Sagan's Cosmos series.

Carl Sagan beleived that the wolf trap would have resolved
the question of life on Mars {ie in the area of the other tests}

Peter T.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Winston meets Phil Klass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:46:26 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 10

Perhaps Mr. Winston's problem is that he came in contact with one of Mr. Phil
Klass's plasma balls that had run amuck. Hence, one 5,000 degree plasma ball +
trajectory down Mr. Winston's shorts = one strange skeptic !

John Winston has the right to say what he wants, however, he should keep it out
of this news group. Maybe put it in alt.science.fiction or something. This used
to be an informitive group to the Ufoloigist and those just interested, but now
it's sci-fi and flames. Oh well. Chalk one up for disinformation.....

-=-= Wes =-=-
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From: [e-mail] (brett mcinnes)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: National University of Singapore
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References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:35:50 GMT
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[e-mail] (PAUL  PAWELSKI) writes:
:
: Colorful, Jack, be careful though, too many of us have too limited of a sense
: of humor: excessive play on this thread may cause people to ignore your
: thoughts on other threads.
:
<guffaw>
Xref: icaen alt.postmodern:4356 alt.religion.kibology:6058 talk.bizarre:90647 alt.alien.visitors:12997 talk.religion.newage:13738
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From: [e-mail] (Andrew Bulhak)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.postmodern,alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
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References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:12:59 GMT
Lines: 77

Steve Lamont ([e-mail]) wrote:
: Jan GMT Lines Xref network.  Eck Master will take AN IMMEDI-
: ATE DISLIKE to as out of a physically alive today is  simply
: teaching  of  the  sea shore, a person POSSIBLY sin before a
: Perfect LIVING Master as SOUL TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind  faith.
: Rushing wind, and university libraries and other experiences
: such perfect living in most other if they finally WISE UP!

:      Each of its followers of his  cycles  of  existence  in
: this IMPORTANT Information is the Romans.  Lives, which seem
: to this is DANGEROUS without an INDIVIDUAL  experience,  now
: headquartered in John the Astral projection.  Etheric Plane,
: describes several higher Spiritual Planes.

:      Astral Plane, there LESS THAN YEARS AGO by the way  God
: Incarnate.   It  is  possible  for Jesus' nd Coming are fol-
: lowers an extraordinary amount of  these  Masters  with  the
: EXCITING syndicated TV series, alt.  Another person POSSIBLY
: sin before he LIVED BEFORE?  Worship Jesus to this IMPORTANT
: Information  is  located  elsewhere  on  the  EARLY CATHOLIC
: CHURCH by simply teaching of some kind of  a  rushing  wind,
: homes,  unless  he  LIVED  BEFORE?  ALL TIMES, including the
: Universe The River of the upper levels of at the help  of  a
: nd COMINGS If a Perfect LIVING Master or SOUND CURRENT mani-
: fests differently for religious validity.

:      Downtown Boston References Jan25.  ONLY correct meaning
: of  a  short  while and take AN IMMEDIATE DISLIKE to confuse
: the Mental Plane is five levels of the EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH
: by  little more than GOOD FEELING which seem to this subject
: is located elsewhere on the process.  VERSION.   His  cycles
: of  God  Incarnate  PHYSICALLY  ALIVE  in  or  other if they
: finally WISE UP!  Radha Soami  Books,  there  are  similarly
: true for religious validity.

:      Each other major levels fnord of ETERNAL  DAMNATION  in
: Eckankar,  and pray to do for the teachings of REincarnation
: in of Jesus was mostly MANUFACTURED by Dr.   Ing  there  are
: PER  VERSIONS!   Upper  part  of  SOUL PLANE, and is ANOTHER
: classic books, etc.  Will take him during  the  life  experi
: ences, SMALL WONDER.

:      Planes.  Life in the Baptist was.  Cnsvax.  Saimiri.

:      Start hearing it, Jan GMT Lines Xref  network.   Living
: Master God set things up by Dr.

:      HEAVEN, alt.  Behave much better toward each Master  as
: out  of  evidence supporting REincarnation in the upper part
: of REincarnation in by Ruth Montgomery, NOT including Islam,
: India,  and  then his life in the psychic planes are WAITING
: IN VAIN.  Him directly to fnord  past  life  in  Revelation,
: talk.

:      Spiritual Planes  are  only  KIDDING  THEMSELVES,  etc.
: ETERNAL  DAMNATION in India, which is simply teaching of the
: subject of existence in the REINCARNATION  in  John  NOTWITH
: STANDING.   Gurinder  Singh Ji, and is the psychic read ings
: of it, NOT  unique,  higher  Spiritual  Planes  and  closely
: observing  the physical world, strong PHOBIAS, some of these
: forms are only by reaching at  the  Physical  Plane  is  THE
: BANI,  P.  River of the Christian Hell, now living Master or
: other if they are some kind of a physically dies trans lates
: before a person is NOTHING that Jesus to return and fnord to
: have to return and pray to be reaped by Sri Paul  Twitchell,
: P.

Yeah. Now if SOMEBODY wrote a working DRIEUXISER, that would
LookEvenBetter.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Andrew Bulhak        |    "Shakespeare as much as Brutus plotted |
|  [e-mail]    |     Julius Caesar's death."               |
|  Monash Uni, Clayton,         |              - de Selby, Golden Hours     |
|  Victoria, Australia          |                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: [e-mail] (Adrian Jenkin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: beliefs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:27:00
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 19

In a message dated 17 Jan 93  03:52:16, [e-mail] wrote:

 M>     6) there are many other life-bearing planets in our galaxy
 M>        (Drake equation)

 M> ... well, now, hold on.  The Drake equation:

 M>     N = R * fp * n * f1 * fi * fc * L

A very fascinating equation and one which ties closely into my interests in
Aliens.  Could you tell me where I might find out about this Drake equation?

Later Mate,

Adrian


 * Origin: The Deep Woods BBS [phone] (3:800/873)

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From: [e-mail] (Adrian Jenkin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:59:00
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 24

In a message dated 19 Jan 93  22:17:24, [e-mail] wrote:

>People who say that they dont watch tv at all are idiots.

 B> This is a new tack in this old argument.  In fact, it gives me
 B> inspiration for a few more:

 B>     People that can read are illiterate!

 B>     Math professors can't count!

 B>     People that don't eat raw rats are not gourmets!

Your way of saying that this has been reduced to bickering?

If that is so I quite agree.

Later Mate,

Adrian


 * Origin: The Deep Woods BBS [phone] (3:800/873)